Special List #18: Why the Biggest Stress in Dentistry Isn’t the Dentistry with Geri Gottlieb

Dr. Souyias (00:00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Special Lists, presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists. All right. Thank you and welcome to another episode of The Specialists. I am here with my co-host as always, Dr. Michael Sada.

Dr. Seda (00:00:18):
Good afternoon.

Dr. Souyias (00:00:20):
Dr. Cameron Full.

Cameron Full (00:00:21):
Bringing it down.

Dr. Souyias (00:00:23):
And I am Jason Souyias. We are fortunate enough this evening to welcome Geri Gottlieb as our guest.

Geri Gottlieb (00:00:30):
Hello.

Dr. Souyias (00:00:31):
Geri Gottlieb is the founder of GG Practice Coaching and Development and has spent more than three decades helping dental practices grow stronger teams, healthier cultures, and more sustainable businesses. Before becoming a coach and speaker, Geri worked in and then owned and operated two successful periodontal practices with her husband, giving her firsthand insight into the real challenges dentists face every day.

Cameron Full (00:00:55):
The real real.

Dr. Souyias (00:00:56):
Today, the real deal. It's this real world experience that we're talking about here.

Geri Gottlieb (00:01:01):
Real life.

Dr. Souyias (00:01:02):
That's right. Today she works with dentists and specialists across the country, helping them bridge the gap between clinical excellence and leadership. Please help me welcome Geri Gottlieb.

Cameron Full (00:01:13):
Woo-hoo.

Dr. Seda (00:01:14):
Geri.

Dr. Souyias (00:01:15):
Thanks, Geri. We're so glad to have you here.

Cameron Full (00:01:17):
This GG for coming on the show.

Geri Gottlieb (00:01:17):
I'm glad to be here.

Dr. Souyias (00:01:20):
Tell us a little bit, before we get too far into your list, tell us a little bit about that real world experience. How does that make you a better coach because you've lived it?

Geri Gottlieb (00:01:31):
Well, I think you just answered it because I lived it. So before I went into practice ownership, I had already started stepping into that coach consulting arena and with a mindset and a belief system that I knew all the things about all the things. And that you all, practice owners, dentists, were like easy. I don't know what's wrong with those people. I can tell them all the things that are wrong and I can tell them all the things they need to do. And I thought I was pretty good.

Dr. Souyias (00:02:08):
And then what happened?

Cameron Full (00:02:10):
And then? And then-

Geri Gottlieb (00:02:13):
And then I stepped into ownership shoes and honestly had a pretty rude awakening. And what I discovered was that I didn't know what I didn't know and what I didn't know what I thought I knew. Being a dentist and being a practice owner and the practitioner is really freaking hard. And the expectations that we as team, we as office managers, we as patients have of doctor owners and how they should, could, why don't they ... What's wrong with them about practice ownership? It's a little bit unfair. And so I think for me, what it did was it married the years of experience and drive, the education, the continual learning that I have with real life. Oh, but it's actually not what I thought it was. And oh, my husband is an amazing clinician and my husband loves his patients and my husband loves his team.

(00:03:19):
He happens to also be a specialist. So he also has to love his referring doctor base. And all of that is super heavy to carry around in your backpack. And so if we can build teams around the doctor owners super strong and relieve some of that out of their backpack, then that was the mission I was going to be on going forward from there as a practice coach.

Dr. Souyias (00:03:48):
When you had that realization of, oh my God, I don't know what I thought I knew and I don't even know what I don't know, how did you take the first leaps to get help for yourself?

Geri Gottlieb (00:04:00):
Oh, great question, Jason. The first thing was I sought to find mentors and educators who also had been through that same path that I had. And in addition, I sought outside counsel too. So I wanted different perspectives, right? The real, real big perspective, people who knew nothing about it and people who knew lots about it because they'd also traveled that path. And I made a ton of mistakes, a ton. It's the best teacher. I mean, what happened 15 years ago is not the same coach that I am now or the same owner, business owner now owning a business of my very own for the last seven years.

Dr. Souyias (00:04:40):
The school of hard knocks and finding mentorship has been a very common theme on many of our episodes. And it's not always, dentists feel pretty isolated, I think a lot of the times. And especially when they don't practice in a group practice and things like that, again, a common theme that's come up frequently in our podcast that's talked about. Where did you go to find those mentors?

Geri Gottlieb (00:05:09):
Well, that's also a good question. Part of it was from professors and things I knew from college. Part of it was honestly therapists that I also worked with and had been introduced to even within the dental industry. I went to other coaches and consultants. I started off in coaching on my own and Geri Gottlieb out there in the world, yeah, yeah, yeah, until I realized, oh, that's also hard, also hard. And so I started by going to work for a larger consulting company for five years while I was still in practice ownership, still taking all the CE, but not having to carry the weight of having my own business.

Cameron Full (00:05:56):
We are back.

Dr. Souyias (00:05:57):
We are back after a slight technical difficulty.

Cameron Full (00:06:01):
Where in the hell were we at?

Dr. Souyias (00:06:03):
We were actually just transitioning to Geri's list. She gave us a fantastic intro and we were just transitioning to the list that we were trying to get into of what the things are to talk about. And the first one on Geri's list is dentistry is a team sport. So tell us

Cameron Full (00:06:25):
So is podcasting.

Dr. Souyias (00:06:26):
So is podcasting. Thank goodness we have a team.

Geri Gottlieb (00:06:29):
Yes. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. So tell us what, Jason?

Dr. Souyias (00:06:33):
Tell us what that means to you. I mean, I've seen your lecture. I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's a fabulous lecture that you give. And tell us what that means to you.

Geri Gottlieb (00:06:43):
What it means to me is this. Most all of my dental friends and practitioners, and I think really most business owners know how to do what they do. They know how to do the dentistry. They know how to do the whatever. Most don't know how to actually build a team, a winning team. And so I look at it from the lens of sports, like sports recruiters, sports managers. How do we actually build a team? And number one. And number two, if we're building a team, if dentistry is a team sport and I believe that it is, then where does it start? And I'm going to back into ... It starts with vision and values of what that particular team is supposed to look like, feel like, sound like, work like, but it also starts with the individual player. So for me, that is who and how are we recruiting?

(00:07:44):
And then once we've recruited them and we've put them on our team, it's like baseball. They don't just say, "We're going to recruit this pitcher from wherever." And then we're like, "Hope he pitches."

Dr. Souyias (00:07:55):
Throw them to the wolves.

Geri Gottlieb (00:07:56):
Right.

Dr. Souyias (00:07:56):
Yeah.

Geri Gottlieb (00:07:57):
No, they continue to train. They continue to work with that pitcher. They continue to go through, they continue to practice. They continue to have all the outfielders in the first and second and third basemen working with the pitchers also so that they are all calibrated and working well.That's one piece of it. And that's something that we just don't do well in dentistry, not on a continuous basis, not for the team or the auxiliary supporting team around the dentist. And then it's looking at what are the character qualities of a player and does everybody on the team actually know how to play as a team? And for me, it was an awakening really back in 2020 when I was watching a lot of my clients and teams struggle really hard during the COVID shutdown and others rise up. And I thought, "What is going on? " And it occurred to me through lots of trial and error and 30 days of sitting in a corner from 6:00 AM to 11:00 PM every night on Zoom calls like this, that not everybody knows how to actually play on a team.

Cameron Full (00:09:09):
For sure.

Geri Gottlieb (00:09:10):
And that might've included me, including when I was on teams and leading and running dental practices. Because for me, I'd never played a team sport, I had never done anything like that. But I had been under this impression that I could just work with any team. I could just take any group of people together and that makes them a team. And now I can teach them how to trust each other and communicate and have a good culture and that's going to make them a winning team. And that's just not true. If it was true, every team in sports would be winning all the time, but they're not.

Dr. Souyias (00:09:45):
They're not.

Geri Gottlieb (00:09:46):
And so for me, I looked at, I said, "Does Geri know how to be a team player?"

Dr. Seda (00:09:53):
What was the answer to that?

Geri Gottlieb (00:09:55):
No, I didn't because the answer was this. I knew how to work really hard. I knew how to be kick ass at what I did. I knew how to get continuing education for myself. I knew how to make myself better, but I didn't necessarily relate that to how that worked with everybody else on my team and then how to make everybody else better. And what did I need to be actually really good at and what did I not need to be good at and what other talent did I have around me, like those first, second, and third basemen.

Dr. Seda (00:10:25):
So what tools do you use when you recognize this within a team? Because it sounds like that's the fundamental thesis of how you go in and implement change, right?

Geri Gottlieb (00:10:36):
Yeah.

Dr. Seda (00:10:37):
So what are the tools that you use and how do you go about doing that? So interesting.

Geri Gottlieb (00:10:41):
Yeah. So well, I use a lot of different tools. I use behavioral and personality style assessments, number one. Number two, I observe and

Dr. Seda (00:10:51):
Sorry. To help everyone be cognizant of what they're like, what's their style?

Geri Gottlieb (00:10:57):
Correct.

Dr. Seda (00:10:57):
What's the style of my teammates around me?

Geri Gottlieb (00:10:59):
Correct. What does that makeup look like of the team? Am I expecting everybody to be like me or my- Not fair, right? Am I looking around and going, "Oh no, all kinds of different people on this team."

Cameron Full (00:11:10):
Yes, everyone is going to be like me.

Dr. Souyias (00:11:13):
If everyone on a dental team was like Cameron, we would all be massively screwed.

Geri Gottlieb (00:11:18):
Yeah. Yeah. We used to, my team and my teams that I led always called it the world according to Geri or the world according to GG, I'm like, "Yeah, well, it'd be a pretty good world. Hello." Pretty

Dr. Souyias (00:11:29):
Good world. No, I tease. I

Cameron Full (00:11:32):
Get a lot of shit done if they're all like you.

Dr. Souyias (00:11:34):
You do get a lot of shit done. That's absolutely true.

Cameron Full (00:11:36):
Sorry, Geri.

Dr. Souyias (00:11:37):
Sometimes you need translators. Translators and someone to heighten the leash a little bit.

Cameron Full (00:11:42):
Sorry, Geri, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Geri Gottlieb (00:11:43):
No, that's one tool. And so there's that awareness. And then I'm looking for character qualities of an ideal team player. I'm looking for people who are humble, but not in a, "Oh, I'm not good at this kind of way," but people who are like, "I know what I'm good at, but let me know. I also know what I'm not good at." And then take a look at the team around me and leverage and raise that up. I'm looking for people who are hungry, who want to learn, want to grow, want to be better, and not just to make themselves better, like maybe the Geri of old, but that want to be better for the team and help the team. And then people who are emotionally intelligent. I think that's the biggest missing component because we can have all these other tools, but if it's only one of the components, but if someone doesn't have the emotional intelligence to use those tools, be self-aware, all of those things that's going to be harder to get them-

Cameron Full (00:12:43):
No, I think also, Geri, in the setting, in the healthcare setting, I think that's fundamental too, that emotional intelligence.

Geri Gottlieb (00:12:51):
Well, it seems that it should be, Cameron.

Dr. Souyias (00:12:54):
Yeah, it's not always though.

Geri Gottlieb (00:12:55):
It's fundamental, but-

Cameron Full (00:12:56):
No, no. I mean, fundamental to be a good contributor. Yeah.

Geri Gottlieb (00:13:00):
It should be. I was agreeing with you. Well, that is a benchmark for me. That's that because I can teach the rest of the things for the most part. If someone's willing and someone has the acumen, if they're willing to try and learn, I can work with that all day long if they are humble, hungry, and smart. EQ, if they have a good EQ, I can work with that all day.

Dr. Souyias (00:13:22):
Yeah. One of the tools we used in our practice was the Clifton Strength Finders. And we do this exercise, we repeat it every couple years because sometimes there's new people on the team and we go through the exercise of, imagine if we were all the same. If we were all quick start people that wanted to get things done right away, and yet you stuck me on the phone trying to find somebody's insurance benefits and I had to wait on hold for 45 minutes, I would be losing my mind. So it's these differences that we find in one another allows us to realize that, okay, we don't all have to be great at the same thing. I can be great at this. You can be great at this, you can be great at ... And then yet together we perform really, really well as an office team.

Geri Gottlieb (00:14:11):
Yes.

Dr. Souyias (00:14:11):
That's the key, right?

Geri Gottlieb (00:14:12):
Yes. I think one through line for me over and over and over again, I even say it to myself every day is stop expecting you from other people.

Dr. Souyias (00:14:23):
Cameron just retired, guys. Sorry about that. Yeah.

Cameron Full (00:14:27):
I'm done. I'm done. Yeah. That's why I have an AI me. Yeah.

Dr. Souyias (00:14:36):
That's the one person we found that actually might work harder than Cameron, The AI camera.

Geri Gottlieb (00:14:41):
It's AI a bot. Oh my gosh.

Cameron Full (00:14:48):
That's really good. I think that Geri, behavioral assessment, there's been a wide variety. Have you used different versions? Do you use a different tool depending upon the type of practice or do you have some defaults that ... I'm just curious because obviously there's a wide array of those tests available.

Geri Gottlieb (00:15:10):
Yep. So I have used probably most all of them, but I don't use all of them with Teams.

Dr. Seda (00:15:18):
Got it.

Geri Gottlieb (00:15:19):
I use DIS For a couple of reasons. One, it's simpler than most of the others. It's easier for people to remember and think about the styles, not only their styles, which is D-I-S-C, but also I attribute ... I'll use a bird analogy to what is a D style like? What is an I- style like? And then they can remember those. And then most recently I was up in Canada, so I related it to every hockey position on the team. So I use that one, but I like any of them that are easy for teams to understand, people to answer and used appropriately.

Dr. Souyias (00:16:05):
The strengths of teams and the different personalities do make us stronger, but there's even a more, I would consider an even baser level to that, and that's culture. And we've talked about that a little bit, but I'm transitioning to your second point is that culture is not soft.

Geri Gottlieb (00:16:25):
No.

Dr. Souyias (00:16:25):
Okay. What do you mean by that?

Geri Gottlieb (00:16:27):
Here's what I found. People think it's fluffy. If you say, "We're going to work on culture," or, "I wrote a thing. We're going to talk about culture." It's about the culture. You got to have a good culture. Really, what does that mean?

Dr. Souyias (00:16:38):
Great. What does that mean?

Geri Gottlieb (00:16:40):
Yeah, what is it? And we can talk about that and just I'll set that aside for just a second. But culture is like vision and values. It's who we are. It's not who we say we are. It's not what we say. It's not the little thing we put up on the wall or I have a culture of this. No. Truly, what is the culture in your practice? And I think it actually goes back to fundamental. It's just like ideal team player. It is fundamental because again, I could give you every tool possible. I could work with the team around their disc styles or whatever and have them be ideal team players. But if your culture sucks, or if you have a culture of gossip, if you have a culture of whatever, if your culture sucks, none of those tools actually work well.

Dr. Seda (00:17:30):
Right. We taught a lot about culture in my practice, and we kind of define it as several things, but one is-

Cameron Full (00:17:37):
This doesn't surprise me.

Dr. Seda (00:17:40):
Repeated, being in Northern California, we sit in a circle, we sing kumbaya.

Cameron Full (00:17:45):
Drum circles.

Dr. Seda (00:17:46):
We wear tie dye shirts and talk about culture.

Cameron Full (00:17:48):
You wear shirts?

Dr. Seda (00:17:49):
Only tie dye.

Dr. Souyias (00:17:51):
Loin cloths. Olympics.

Dr. Seda (00:17:53):
Exactly. Ivy leaves.

Geri Gottlieb (00:17:54):
We sit outside around-

Cameron Full (00:17:56):
Tomorrow's Tuesday.

Geri Gottlieb (00:17:57):
Or a grapevine or something that's protected. Yes,

Dr. Seda (00:18:00):
Yes.

Cameron Full (00:18:01):
Super Tuesday. We do patient days with togas on. Toga Tuesday.

Dr. Souyias (00:18:06):
Toga Tuesdays. Toga Tuesdays.

Dr. Seda (00:18:07):
But culture is repeated patterns of behavior as part of culture. So we can talk about things and how we want them to be, but how is it actually happening on a daily basis? Exactly. Repeated patterns of behavior. Tolerance and accepted limits of behavior, how we treat each other, how we treat our patients, how we communicate, what's tolerated and what's not. And the entire team holding each other accountable to those things. And then from there, it kind of branches out. So for us, culture really sets the stage for everything else we do.

Geri Gottlieb (00:18:48):
Correct. And that's exactly how I look at it as well. And I talk about it. When I start to work with a practice, I always work with the doctor owner first. And they'll say, "Do you have a vision statement?" "Oh yeah, yeah. I've done vision and culture work. Really? Let me see it. And then tell me about it. What does it mean to you? "And then they can't even answer those questions because it was like, " Somebody told me to write this thing up and I did this thing and I come up with integrity and this and that. "It's like, no. What does it mean to you, Michael? What does this look like to you and what is it supposed to look like every single day? And what are those behaviors? So for me, that's core values, right? Core behaviors that have to be in place every single day and in everything we do.

(00:19:33):
And then, Dr. Owner, give me specific examples of what that looks like in action because people can't be what they can't see. And if we're not actually also modeling it every single day and/or this whole holding people accountable to it, that means ourself, then the culture is exactly whatever we're tolerating.

(00:19:59):
I love that you said that, Michael, because it gets frustrating to me to work with a practice or to work with the team that says," Our culture is this. We're a culture of excellence. We're a culture of whatever. We're a culture of this. "And I'm like, " Really? And yet you tolerate every single day this and that is not in alignment with this.

Dr. Souyias (00:20:20):
All right. So give us a little practice coaching tip.

Cameron Full (00:20:26):
Do your values match your, match your words.

Geri Gottlieb (00:20:32):
Yeah. Do your values match your words.

Cameron Full (00:20:33):
And do your words match your actions?

Dr. Souyias (00:20:36):
There you go.

Cameron Full (00:20:37):
That's it.

Dr. Souyias (00:20:38):
Wonderful.

Cameron Full (00:20:38):
That's culture.

Geri Gottlieb (00:20:40):
Well, my husband, Bob, makes fun of me. He'll say," What do you mean? What do you mean you're having them working on their vision and core values and their culture? "He's like, " Can't you just go into their practice and know what the culture is? "And I said," Yes, but I'm working with them on what is it they want it to be and then how do we then work and engineer that?

Dr. Souyias (00:21:04):
So that was where my question was going. So when you walk into a practice and you say," Okay, this practice is suffering from not the culture that the practice wants it to be, even though they might have all these things they say-

Cameron Full (00:21:15):
This culture.

Dr. Souyias (00:21:16):
how do you start on that journey of correcting it?

Geri Gottlieb (00:21:22):
I start by working with the doctor owner and I make them read a book. I take them through the book called The Advantage, because I want them to really look at vision, values, and culture in a way that maybe they haven't looked at it before. And then I say, "Well, this is where we are now." And then I make them get really, really clear. Even if they say, "Oh, I've done this work before. I've had this or I had a culture coach or whatever." I'm like, great, it's kind of like doing a new patient exam. It's like, it doesn't matter that I've been to seven other periodontists. I'm now a new patient in your practice. So I make them go through and get really, really clear. And I think if you ask any, you've interviewed many of my clients, but if you ask them, they'll be like, "I've never done work like that before." So I make the doctor owner or the ownership team get really, really clear down to the nitty-gritty.

(00:22:13):
What does this look like? What is it supposed to look like? Okay, if this is what this is supposed to look, feel like, smell, like, taste like every single day, doctor owner, what are you willing, like Michael said, to tolerate, not tolerate. What are the hills you're going to die on or not? Are you willing to hire, fire, change directions, change implant companies, do whatever it is to be in alignment with this? Because if the answer's not yes, then this is not actually your culture.

Cameron Full (00:22:47):
Your culture.

Dr. Seda (00:22:48):
Yeah, because culture without vision and then execution-

Geri Gottlieb (00:22:53):
Without execution. Is

Dr. Seda (00:22:54):
A build vulnerability.

Cameron Full (00:22:56):
It's a billboard.

Dr. Seda (00:22:57):
It's like execution and accountability are the cornerstones to living your culture or your vision.

Cameron Full (00:23:04):
It's like a motivational poster. What's in your bathroom Souyias? What's that poster in your bathroom?

Dr. Souyias (00:23:11):
I love how we're talking about my bathroom on the podcast, but that's all right.

Cameron Full (00:23:14):
Well, you got that motivational poster.

Dr. Souyias (00:23:16):
If you're not riding the wave of change, you might find yourself under it.

Geri Gottlieb (00:23:20):
Correct. There you go. And then for me, the culture is actually, that's the strong foundation, right? That's not soft. That is a strong foundation. Incredible bathroom bathroom. Everything else gets built upon, so including every system, SOP, and then even systems for accountability. I think people struggle with accountability. So for me, when we're going to support the culture, the vision, the values, I want every operating system, including a system for accountability, what's the process going to be? Whether it's peer-to-peer, whether it's leader to team, whatever, what's the process going to be and how are we going to hold each other accountable to what we want?

Dr. Seda (00:24:03):
And I think the tough thing about all of this that we're discussing is that you don't necessarily always see an immediate return on investment taking the time and energy to implement this stuff and to think it through and then sit as a team. And as practitioners, as people whose business revolves around revenue stream from doing procedures, we have to take time away from doing that to implement a lot of this. And so before I did it, it was so shortsighted of me to not take the time to do these things. And then only when I became desperate, you think I look like this now, you see me in a desperate state, it's 10 times scarier. And so finally it was definitely-

Cameron Full (00:24:53):
How are we supposed to take that? Where did that even ...

Geri Gottlieb (00:24:56):
I'm not sure.

Dr. Seda (00:24:57):
Yeah. No, but-

Dr. Souyias (00:24:59):
We're just going to be gloss over that.

Dr. Seda (00:25:00):
Once you do take the time and put the energy in and sew the seeds of culture and vision and implementation and all these things that we're talking about. So for the young practitioners out there, a lot of times too, you've got these loans, you're trying to build a practice. It seems foolish to want to stop the wheel to try to implement a lot of this. And the earlier you do it, the more return you're going to get on it, for sure.

Dr. Souyias (00:25:27):
100%. And I think the saying of culture is soft comes from the fact that most dental professionals, particularly specialists, spend all day reading dental journals, not reading business journals and studying business. Correct. And when you actually sit down and study business, culture is absolutely not soft. There is really good data and research out there that shows in the business world and how having a solid foundation of the culture you want within your business makes your life easier every day.

Geri Gottlieb (00:26:04):
Well, I think both of you just said that. So Michael and you, Jason, just I use a lot of data, a lot of statistics. If I could show you, Doctor, owner, what the ROI on this would be, if I could show you, if you did stop that hamster wheel for whatever period of time that you needed to reset or set the culture and practice that you want to have, not the one you wish you had, but the one you want to have. Again, like a sports team, they build the team they want to have. They don't just are like, "Well, these players, I hope they get a home run." No, they are crafting it. They're working at it that when you actually do that, I want to show you what the ROI looks like. If I could show you that data, if I can show you what that looks like, if I could show you what it looks like in the corporate world, what they do, how much time they spend.

(00:26:56):
And then I joke like, "Yeah, I want to be skinny too, but it's not going to happen if I'm just sitting here hoping and wishing, yelling at someone else for making the food that I'm going to eat that I shouldn't be. " It's like, no, I got to put the time in and put the effort in.

Dr. Souyias (00:27:13):
So that's a good spot to start talking about our next topic on your list. The next topic on your list is the biggest stress in dentistry is not the dentistry, but it does not tell us what you think it is. So what is the biggest stress in dentistry?

Geri Gottlieb (00:27:29):
What is it for you all?

Cameron Full (00:27:31):
Well, talking to dentists every day.

Geri Gottlieb (00:27:33):
That's also mine, Cameron, but what is the dentist think every day?

Dr. Souyias (00:27:41):
You know what, that's a good point. I think the most common thing when we get together in groups of dentists is that they complain about their teams.

Geri Gottlieb (00:27:48):
The people.

Dr. Souyias (00:27:49):
The people.

Geri Gottlieb (00:27:50):
Because peopleing is hard. Peopleing is hard even when you like to people.

Dr. Souyias (00:27:55):
I would like to stop for one second and be really clear. I am not complaining about my team if any of them are watching this. I'm just saying that happens the most when you put a group of dentists together. So thanks guys.

Geri Gottlieb (00:28:06):
Well, that's the number one question I will ask sometimes, doctor owner, if you could never have to deal with one thing in your practice ever again, what would it be? Oh, the team and all the drama or the team and the whatever. Peopleing is hard. So if we can, again, it goes, all of these things loop back together. When we are clear on who, what, how we want our practice to be, we lay that foundation and that's the culture we continually nurture and support, but peopleing becomes less stressful because we know then we're better equipped to people, but I

Dr. Souyias (00:28:49):
And again, sorry, when the culture's right, because of that accountability and things like that, when you don't have the gossip culture, when you don't have those negative things that are happening in the practice, it becomes easier to come to work every day.

Geri Gottlieb (00:29:06):
For sure. You're not having to deal with those things. And listen, from marrying into and then trying to understand my own specialist, the husband, again, it comes down to also awareness. We couldn't be two polar opposites in style. I'm a high ID. I'm going to get it done. I'm going to say it. I'm going to do the things. Let's go. And then I have some of that analytical side in there. Well, he's a periodontist. He's like very analytical, a little bit of D drive in there. He had to pretend to be people- y because he also runs a study club and he's also about relationship. He has to be as a specialist. But what I also realized is how stressful ... I mean, listen, when I first stepped into those shoes, how stressful all of that other Other stuff becomes and how distracting it is from the stuff that clinicians love to do.

(00:30:06):
No one's going to dental school and then onto specialty, especially to be like, "Boy, I really hope I get to deal with Susie being mad at Becky tomorrow." No, nobody's doing that. So again, it goes back to, is dentistry a team support? And if it is, let's build it like that. And let's surround my doctor owners with team who can manage and handle those things themselves for the most part and let Dr. Owner carry the vision, carry the culture or be the chief reminding officer of that culture and that vision and doing the dentistry and building relationships.

Dr. Souyias (00:30:45):
And again, I forget who I was having this conversation with recently, but dentistry trains us to not be a team player. We go to the dental school and when we're in dental school, we do everything ourselves because that's where we're graded and things. And then all of a sudden we get out into these practices and now we're out here in these practices and we're just supposed to turn things over to team members. And so we're used to doing it a particular way. We don't know how to coach people to do things the way we want them done. And in turn, we're just like, "Oh, give it to me. It's just easier if I do it. It's give it to me. It's easier I do it. " So we are our own worst enemies in this that we don't give the empowerment to our teams. We don't know how to empower our teams. And once we learn how to do that, it's the most freeing thing.

Dr. Seda (00:31:40):
So delegation.

Dr. Souyias (00:31:42):
Delegation.

Geri Gottlieb (00:31:43):
Yeah.

Dr. Seda (00:31:43):
Training and patience. Those three things, it's such a game changer. And as Jason said, I mean, you nailed it right on the head, man. You get out of school and you barely know how to do procedures. And what I've learned over time making mistake after mistake is it's not even necessarily about how good of a periodontist I am. It's about how smoothly things flow, how well things are communicated, what the warmth or feeling is when someone steps into our space, our home for that eight hours or 10 hours during the day. And we work on that consciously now. It almost pains me to think back to what it was like for me when I first started and not knowing any of this, just kind of the blind leading the blind. And it led to some very difficult situations. I used to remember getting in my car, going to the office sometimes and just dreading the next eight to 10 hours.

(00:32:49):
And I could point it myself as the reason why. And then as things started to change and we started working towards studying how we affect change, now I feel so blessed. It's an honor and a privilege to be working with the group that I work with. And it frees me in so many ways to then be there for my patients. And it's this snowball effect that occurs. And people now comment on it and that's how you know you're on the right track. And you also learn to protect it, right? Protecting that is also such an important, crucial piece to that puzzle because we work so hard and diligently to build it and cultivate it and nourish it. And there are threats that can impose themselves throughout the way. So for example, as Geri mentioned, are you willing to do what it takes to stick by and live the vision?

(00:33:46):
If it's a team member that's constantly disruptive or going against the grain of what the fabric of the culture is, are you willing to make that hard decision and let that person go?

Geri Gottlieb (00:34:00):
No matter how good they are, maybe they're a really great chairside assistant. I see this a lot as your life as a surgeon amazing. You think, "I cannot possibly do this without that person, but not toxic to the rest of the thing." That's where it goes back to that culture. Are you saying really you live that culture or do we tolerate Susie being a Budinski and making everybody else's life miserable because she makes my life great at the chair?

Dr. Seda (00:34:25):
And how many times have we heard that story? As this person does so much, I just can't let them go. And it could be a he or a she.

Geri Gottlieb (00:34:32):
I hear it all the time.

Dr. Seda (00:34:33):
Yes. And I've lived that a few times. And what's happened is it usually always works out for the better of the practice because you don't know just how disruptive that person or team member has been.

Cameron Full (00:34:48):
But you got to realize that is the byproduct of giving that person all of that responsibility.

Dr. Seda (00:34:53):
Exactly. Very well said.

Cameron Full (00:34:56):
We're glazing over something that's really important here. And so most practices, and I talk about this a lot, most practices start as a doctor and an admin, associate, auxiliary, some clinical, whatever, right? The pack of few. And then whomever upfront is a high performer, so I just give her a whole or whatever, usually her, him a whole bunch of stuff and just more stuff and more stuff and more stuff and more stuff and more stuff. And then that person's like, "Oh, I need help." And so you're like, "Okay, get somebody." And so they grab somebody that's just like them and they hand her some stuff and then it's like, "Hey, we got this together. We're cross-trained." And there's no accountability between those two individuals. We've got each other's back. And so ultimately what happens is, and I hypothesize that there's some sort of formulaic that exists at some point. And it's a variant of either production or new patient volume or number of operatories or number of team members or some fuzzy version of all that.

Dr. Seda (00:35:57):
Yeah, I think it's probably-

Cameron Full (00:35:58):
There's some fuzzy version of all that in which we hit this inflection point that you either as the doctor owner decide, do I want to get better and improve and keep growing or do I allow myself to continue to have a couple high performers in my practice that got each other's back? And so culture's not a problem until that point. And once it hits that, then it's a real big problem because now you've built all of your, everything off this function of high performers, which is I've got these amazing people that can handle everything and she knows what coffee I like and I got my study club club up and she's got it covered and all this shit happens. And so, but this isn't just in dentistry, this is in all specialty, right? Specialty. And when I say specialty, I mean everybody that has a special-

Dr. Seda (00:36:45):
And business, any business.

Cameron Full (00:36:46):
Everybody has a specialization.

Dr. Seda (00:36:48):
Yes, yes.

Cameron Full (00:36:49):
Everybody that has a specialization hands these things off so they can continue to do their specialization. And then they get to that point and they have to have that look in the mirror conversation. And some people get to that point and they say, "Screw it. I'm just going to do $3 million of production. I'm going to work four days a week. I'm going to have my high performer who's going to retire with me and we're going to cancel out that other person every six to nine months or 12 months or 18 months because I've got Betty who's been here for 25 years and she's not going anywhere even though she's losing her mind."

Dr. Seda (00:37:20):
And that's where we have to protect those team members too, because A, they're the heartbeat of the office, but B, there's that tendency for them to either be given too much more than they can handle ultimately because everything- Because through them.

Cameron Full (00:37:35):
And they don't say no.

Dr. Seda (00:37:35):
They don't say no because they love to do-

Cameron Full (00:37:38):
And in many cases, we often pay them more than market average to deal with the bullshit.

Dr. Seda (00:37:44):
Yeah. And that's where we as the leaders need to protect those people, right? And protecting the team and the culture, just to finish my point, Cameron, that was a very good important point you state. And it's not just protecting the high performers from too much work overload, et cetera, and putting all the eggs in one basket. It's also the one part of this equation, if we're talking about dental practices and in the healthcare field, the other key part of the team is the patients. And a lot of times, unfortunately, the team needs to be protected from the patients. We need to protect ourselves from the patients because the way patients sometimes conduct themselves within the healthcare environment is often also outside the lines of our culture and values.

Dr. Souyias (00:38:31):
Correct. 100%.

Dr. Seda (00:38:32):
And so as a business owner, sometimes it's real hard to stand in front of a patient and say, "Listen, you are acting inappropriately, or this isn't going to be tolerated because that's the source of the revenue, but big picture, you cannot be shortsighted. You need to see..." And as the team sees that you protect them against outside forces that can affect that culture and those values, that too also fills into the self-fulfilling cycle of culture and the good feeling and things working smoothly, et cetera.

Cameron Full (00:39:01):
100%.

Geri Gottlieb (00:39:02):
Absolutely. And I would add in there, Michael, that we're protecting team, protecting patients, again, holding the same boundaries, the same level of expectation, what we're going to tolerate and not tolerate from the patient base or our referral base and the relationships there, that's tough as a specialist. But I'm always looking at all of these pieces, training up your team, not overloading culture, vision as protecting the business that you own.

Dr. Souyias (00:39:38):
Yeah, for sure. Totally agree.

Geri Gottlieb (00:39:40):
I think that too, so that all goes together. There's a great book, it's an old book called the Peter Principle. We do it all the time. What is that? It's where we elevate people, the doers, the get shit donors, and we elevate the doers and we keep giving them more things, like Cameron said, and/or we elevate them to different roles. Well, you're a really good, you've been in a kick-ass chairside assistant, you should be my practice manager. Yeah. Different skillsets, different things, but we don't then train them up going all the way back to making sure-

Cameron Full (00:40:12):
That's our fault.

Geri Gottlieb (00:40:14):
Our players are trained. Right. That's our fault.

Cameron Full (00:40:16):
That's our fault.

Geri Gottlieb (00:40:18):
Listen, I had no business. There'll be times even now, I think, "Oh, dear goodness. I had no business. I had no business running someone else's business." I had no business doing that. You hope doctor owners that I knew what I was doing, and the truth is I did not. I'm kicking in, I'm doing stuff, I'm getting stuff done. I didn't always know what I was doing.

Dr. Souyias (00:40:48):
And that's the thing is when we build all these systems correctly and we build all these things properly, a really well-run business can run without any particular individual because the team is stronger than any one individual, right?

Cameron Full (00:41:03):
The best manager can sleep in the office, man.

Dr. Souyias (00:41:06):
Correct.

Cameron Full (00:41:06):
Unfortunately.

Dr. Souyias (00:41:07):
Right. Correct. Yeah, it's true.

Geri Gottlieb (00:41:09):
What did you say, Cameron?

Dr. Souyias (00:41:10):
The best manager could sleep in the office during work hours.

Cameron Full (00:41:15):
Unfortunately.

Dr. Souyias (00:41:16):
If they're really a good manager, they can just take a nap for eight hours.

Cameron Full (00:41:20):
Seda's like wait.

Geri Gottlieb (00:41:21):
If you've trained up your team around being delegated to the right people the right ...

Dr. Souyias (00:41:26):
We're not advocating this. Let's be real clear. We're not advocating this, but you're saying it's a saying, right?

Dr. Seda (00:41:33):
I will say this. So Souyias, as I hear what you're saying, I struggle with one part of it, and that is I look at the characters on my team and they're all exceptional people. And so it would be hard for me to say that the team can operate just as well and smoothly regardless of their attributes and character and work ethic.

Dr. Souyias (00:42:00):
I didn't say any of that.

Dr. Seda (00:42:01):
So can you clarify? Because for example, I know some of the players on your team and there's some pretty frigging amazing people, Right?

Dr. Souyias (00:42:09):
Correct. But our systems, our training, can build someone with the right mindset and attitude to be into that position with enough given time. I got you. So my goal is, for example, like Seda Perio, right? Can Sada Perio survive without Seda? When you get to that point that the answer is yes, that you could turn over your business to another periodontist, your team would literally train that periodontist to do the things that you currently do. That's the concept, right? A well-run business survives even the loss of the founder. My goal is to not be needed in my practice. I want to be the least important person in my practice.

Geri Gottlieb (00:42:51):
Yes.

Dr. Seda (00:42:52):
Next level.

Dr. Souyias (00:42:54):
Next level. And you know what creates that freedom? Systems.

Cameron Full (00:42:58):
Referral Lab.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:00):
Referral lab. Referral lab and referral lab systems.

Dr. Souyias (00:43:04):
Referral lab creates that freedom. No, Geri's last-

Dr. Seda (00:43:08):
Who's got the button?

Dr. Souyias (00:43:10):
Cam's got the button. Oh, it's on the other software.

Dr. Seda (00:43:14):
I can't hit the button.

Dr. Souyias (00:43:16):
Referral lab. That's what it is. Yes.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:19):
What's happening?

Dr. Souyias (00:43:19):
He has a sound bite that he sometimes gets to play, but it's on the other software.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:24):
That's too bad.

Dr. Souyias (00:43:26):
Geri's topic.

Cameron Full (00:43:27):
The Turing quote, "A bad system beats a good person any day."

Dr. Souyias (00:43:32):
Yep.

Cameron Full (00:43:33):
Yep.

Dr. Seda (00:43:33):
No, a good ... Wait, what?

Cameron Full (00:43:36):
Yeah, it's touring.

Dr. Souyias (00:43:37):
Even a bad system beats a high performer, basically.

Cameron Full (00:43:40):
Got it, got it, got it.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:41):
Right. Or I like to say, show me-

Cameron Full (00:43:44):
The money.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:44):
Most of the time. Yeah, show me the money.

Dr. Souyias (00:43:46):
Show me the money. Geri McGuire.

Geri Gottlieb (00:43:48):
Geri, exactly. Show me the money. When people say, "Oh, Susie Q is not this or something not that, or they're just not getting this. " I'm like, "Show me the system." Because 85% of poor performance is actually not the human.

Dr. Souyias (00:44:04):
Correct.

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:04):
It's the system and the training.

Dr. Souyias (00:44:09):
Yep, totally true. So let's talk about systems. How do they create freedom?

Dr. Seda (00:44:13):
Because that's the next item on your list.

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:14):
No my last item was Practices protect energy of the leader. That's what I have.

Dr. Seda (00:44:20):
Where's the Mel Gibson sound bite?

Dr. Souyias (00:44:22):
Mine says systems create freedom.

Cameron Full (00:44:24):
Freedom.

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:25):
We just talked about that one about ... Didn't we? We were talking about-

Dr. Souyias (00:44:30):
No, the biggest stress in dentistry was not the dentistry.

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:34):
Oh, I don't know.

Dr. Souyias (00:44:35):
Well, we can change here on the fly. What would you like the last topic to be?

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:39):
No systems do create freedom, not restriction. And that is how I look at them. You guys are incorgible, really.

Dr. Seda (00:44:47):
We're recording here, y'all.

Dr. Souyias (00:44:48):
This is fun. This is fun.

Geri Gottlieb (00:44:50):
No, I'm super all about systems and systematizing as much as possible and not to look at it like restriction, but truly it is freedom. And for me, it is freedom for my team to have hands out, eyes up connecting with the people that are coming and going and connecting with their teammates. It is things that we don't have to think about. So as much as we can systemize and have replicatable, consistent systems, that we're going to have those and they have to be custom to support the vision, values, culture that you want for your crackdown.

Dr. Souyias (00:45:30):
When you say systems are freedom or create freedom, when yet we're telling somebody, "Well, this is how we want you to do so. " So someone new comes into our practice and they're like, "Here's the process for how we direct where the routing slip goes," or something like that. How does that lead to freedom?

Geri Gottlieb (00:45:51):
When I know the expectation and the process, let's just go on the assumption first that it's actually a good system and process, then I'm not as worried moment to moment if I'm going to make a mistake or drop the ball if I'm able to follow and know and get trained on how we do this here, I can get distracted. Maybe one of my teammates or team members or a patient can talk to me, but I know if I'm following this process and system, I'm probably not likely to make a mistake, especially if there's a checklist accompanied with it.

Dr. Seda (00:46:34):
Yes.

Geri Gottlieb (00:46:35):
Or maybe this is more helpful. When I'm introducing the concept, and honestly, we'll talk about when you grow up your team around you to do the things that they're really good at, I'm a rule follower for the most part, unless I think the rule is stupid. And then I'm like, "Oh, I don't think we need to follow that rule." But I think-

Dr. Souyias (00:46:53):
What rules do you think are stupid?

Geri Gottlieb (00:46:57):
I sing in hockey, I think this is a really stupid thing, but that's a whole other conversation. When I'm teaching the concept of systems, and I do lots of different things to help people look and realize, wow, if we had a system for this, that would've been a lot easier. But I look at it like bumpers on a bowling alley. I don't know if we have any bowlers listening or on here.

Dr. Seda (00:47:18):
Probably not, Geri

Cameron Full (00:47:19):
Is that still a thing?

Dr. Seda (00:47:20):
Probably not.

Cameron Full (00:47:21):
It is a thing. I went not too long ago. I was like, oh my gosh, this is like-

Dr. Seda (00:47:24):
Tell me you grew up in the 80s without telling me you grew up in the 80s.

Geri Gottlieb (00:47:29):
I like bowling?

Cameron Full (00:47:32):
If we have any bowlers listening.

Dr. Seda (00:47:35):
I grew up in the 80s, Geri. Did you crimp your hair, Geri? People want to know.

Geri Gottlieb (00:47:41):
I did not crimp.

Cameron Full (00:47:43):
Not only did Geri crimp her hair, Souyias has crimped his hair.

Dr. Souyias (00:47:48):
I didn't have to. It's naturally curly.

Cameron Full (00:47:50):
No, Crimpy. Crimpy.

Dr. Seda (00:47:52):
Like a Greek God.

Geri Gottlieb (00:47:53):
But I say he's like bumpers on a bowling alley.

Cameron Full (00:47:56):
Did you bowl shirtless?

Dr. Seda (00:47:56):
That's directed at Souyias, Geri.

Cameron Full (00:48:01):
No, it's not directed. I'm sorry.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:04):
Wrong joke for this.

Dr. Seda (00:48:05):
Just to clarify. Okay, we are now off the rails.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:10):
Now we are. Where are the bumpers?

Cameron Full (00:48:14):
I was picturing Souyias with his chain and his hair out, bowling.

Dr. Souyias (00:48:16):
Right there. That's right.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:18):
I don't think you're allowed to bowl without your shirt.

Dr. Souyias (00:48:20):
I don't know.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:22):
Okay. Well, listen, but let's think about-

Dr. Souyias (00:48:24):
He grew up in Iowa, man. Come on.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:26):
Yeah. A system for me is like bumpers on the bowling alley. What is the point of throwing the ball down the lane?

Dr. Souyias (00:48:37):
To hit the pins.

Geri Gottlieb (00:48:38):
To hit the pins, right? And what we don't want is it to go in the gutter. What we don't want is it to go into somebody else's lane and hurt somebody else. If we know that with this system, whatever it is, it is meant to hit those pins at the end. And these are the guardrails on that system. That means you can bounce the ball down, you can throw it really fast, you can push it and it goes really, really slow as long as it gets down the lane and we don't hurt and go outside of the boundaries in the process. Now, sometimes we're going to evaluate and maybe somebody new comes in and they're getting trained. It's not about constraint, except when we're training in the beginning, it's like, "Yeah, for the first three months, Geri, I want you to do it like this.

(00:49:28):
And honestly, I use that when I'm coaching. There are some things that I say, "No, this is your practice and you all have to live here and do this work, but for the first three months of this, I'm going to ask you to try it my way or I'm going to ask you to do it like this. " And then you start to find what, oh, that doesn't actually work for us because we do A, B, and C differently, or that doesn't actually work for us. Or a new set of eyes, a new set of ears, a new style of human comes in and says, "Have you ever thought about removing one of those guardrails?" Oh, no. Right? So I want to systemize as much as possible, but not as a restriction, as a freedom to actually be present in living vision values.

Dr. Seda (00:50:16):
And it's also an opportunity for guidance without having to guide. So where systems come into play for us the most often these days, I mean, we have a ton. And what I've learned in the healthcare setting is there is an infinite number of things that go on in any healthcare business, any practice, the clinical, the business side, HR, whatnot. And so it's impossible to account for all of those things and have a system for all of them immediately from the beginning. However, with a culture of systems implementation, as things come up and we have pain points, what I've learned is rather than anger and frustration setting in for me, my immediate reaction to that is, what was the system? Do we have one or not? And if we don't, what system do we need to put in place to not allow this to happen again? And everyone jumps in and kind of speaks to what their role at play is contributing to the scenario. We come up with a system, it's implemented, pain point removed. So part of a systems culture, if you will, to kind of wrap it all together, to have a culture of systems is a huge part of it as well. And I'll just-

Geri Gottlieb (00:51:33):
For me, it's freedom, right? And I think of it this way.

Cameron Full (00:51:38):
Is he leaving?

Dr. Souyias (00:51:38):
And Seda's out. He's left. He's left the building.That's it.

Geri Gottlieb (00:51:40):
It's over.

Dr. Souyias (00:51:41):
I was just going to tell him too. I was going to give him a nice compliment before he left. But Michael too, I think a big part of that is if I'm not involved in the system, I don't really need to have as much of a say as the doc. My team's the one who has to live it. Well said. I want them to come up with the solution and the system of what works best. Here's what we're trying to accomplish. I set the ... This is what we want to make happen, but it's up to them to figure out how do we do that best in our practice?

Geri Gottlieb (00:52:11):
And I like to have systems and a system playbook essentially. And I always say, so any Lucy or any Geri could come in and fill in for just about anybody on the team, not clinically, but let's think on the administrative side. And in a very short period of time, if we have well-written, documented, visual, like what all checklist systems in place, I could sit down and schedule patients for you in a very short period of time. I could sit down and answer the phone in a very short period of time versus, "Oh, well, I don't know. I've never done this before. Well, how does Geri do it? I don't know. "

Dr. Souyias (00:52:52):
Absolutely.

Cameron Full (00:52:53):
What else is there to say?

Dr. Souyias (00:52:53):
That brings us to the wrap of that was an awesome episode.

Geri Gottlieb (00:52:59):
You didn't ask me number five.

Dr. Seda (00:53:00):
We don't see number five on the list.

Dr. Souyias (00:53:03):
That was the last one on my list.

Geri Gottlieb (00:53:05):
Really? It says, "Most successful practices protect the energy of the leader."

Dr. Souyias (00:53:10):
Oh, this is a good topic though. Let's hit it.

Dr. Seda (00:53:15):
Yeah, let's go. So Geri, what do you have to say about it?

Geri Gottlieb (00:53:18):
Well, it goes back to building ... It's like a sports team. And for me, it goes back to one of our, basically my mission statement, which is build a team so strong you don't know who the boss is.

Dr. Souyias (00:53:29):
Awesome.

Geri Gottlieb (00:53:30):
And so how do we do that? It's all of the things that we've been talking about this evening, right? It's understanding, being super clear about our vision, core values, the culture that we want to have, and then actually living that every single day. It's training up people. It's training up our team. It's training up ourselves to be better and healthier leaders and delegating and using the gifts of our team. And I didn't always know that or understand that. I wanted kick-ass people on my team. I wanted to be a kick-ass person on a team. And maybe I'll close it with this or you can ask me more questions on it. But two weeks ago or three weeks ago, I hosted a training with my own coach. I have a coach and she is a coach that-

Cameron Full (00:54:19):
That's so muta.

Geri Gottlieb (00:54:20):
I know. Right? I do. Yeah. So I have a coach. She coaches trainers. She's like a train the trainer. She coaches coaches how to coach. And I brought my entire team to Palm Springs where I live and it also invited two potential Gigi practice coaching hires that want to be coaches. And we did a two-day workshop. I've taken just about every workshop with my coach and trainer multiple times. And had a big conference table. She was at the head of the conference table and I was at the other head of the other side of the conference table. And my team and the other two were all around. And it was the end of day two. And this is not to pat myself on the back, but it was like what is possible and the freedom that comes when you build a team so strong, you don't know who the boss is. When, like you said, Jason, when it no longer depends on you for that practice and culture and life to continue.

(00:55:29):
End of day two, everybody's going around sharing their takeaways, what are they committing to, those sorts of things. And I'm listening to all of it and she turns and she looked at me and she says, "And Geri, what about you? " And I had a little out of body experience because I stood up and stepped out of my chair and I pushed my chair in and I said, "Well, I mean, I have a few new tools and some things I remembered that I hadn't been doing of late, but the biggest takeaway for me is that when you actually practice what you preach and teach and say you want and is true, this group of humans doing the work that they're doing is what's possible." And she said, "And what does that mean for you? " And it was just such a weird thing. I took a step back from that chair and it says, "It means that I, as the founder, get to step back and let a lot of the real coaching and other work is happening here so that I can now move into either a different role in my company or lean into more the role of founder or CEO and use the gifts that I have, which are I'm the idea person and the wonder person." And I'm constantly like, "What else should we be doing now?

(00:57:06):
What's next for us? What's the next level of growth?" Or as my team calls it, "Geri, your genius is the gift of wonder and invention." And they said, "And most of us just want to get the shit done, so you're going to have to wander the shit out of this business, Geri, for us." And then they all burst into tears and they said, "Yes, because we can do this without me because let's face it, I can't do this forever, but I don't want Gigi practice coaching and it can be called anything else to stop being." I want someone else to take it and run with it and make it theirs. But if I'm just holding on and doing all of the pieces and all of the things and thinking I'm the only one just because it's my name, then I'm strapped by all of that. Where to me it was just that complete freedom. And I burst into tears too, but it was just like, "Oh, yeah, that's good."

Dr. Souyias (00:58:07):
That's a wonderful, wonderful way to talk about protecting the energy of the leader and allowing them the creative freedom to do the things they needed to do to get the company there in the first place.

Geri Gottlieb (00:58:27):
Correct.

Dr. Souyias (00:58:28):
Yeah.

Cameron Full (00:58:28):
Sorry, Souyias, you still have to do gum surgery.

Dr. Souyias (00:58:31):
Yeah. Oh, come on, man.

Geri Gottlieb (00:58:33):
Two of them came with me to Saskatoon and then we spent a day working, we took a detour to Vegas on our way home and they told me, "This is what you need to do next, Gigi, because until you do that, this thing that they're saying I need to do, you're actually holding us all down." And I was like- Oh, wow. But I've built that. I've allowed that. That is part of my culture. You can talk to me and share those things with me. And I said, "You're absolutely right." And I'm not going to hold them down. I've already watched them fly. I'm not going to clip their wings and hold them down because sometimes it's us leader, owner, doctor owner that is holding back from what we actually want to have and the culture and the vision and the team that we want to have.

Cameron Full (00:59:23):
Awesome.

Dr. Souyias (00:59:24):
Wow.What a way to end an amazing episode, Geri. Thank you so much for all your insights. This was a wonderful episode. I can't wait for everybody to see this. This is absolutely fantastic.

Geri Gottlieb (00:59:36):
Well, you guys are fantastic. Thank you so much for your patience.

Dr. Seda (00:59:38):
Thank you, Geri.

Geri Gottlieb (00:59:39):
Sorry, my computer did not like your high-tech-

Dr. Seda (00:59:43):
It was great. It was great.

Dr. Souyias (00:59:46):
Great episode. Thank you. Thank you again for tuning in to The Special Lists. Thanks for listening to The Special Lists, presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialist featuring a special list from a specialist. Got a question for us? Send us a message at speciallists.com with two Ls. Transform your referral workflow with Referral Lab, purpose-built platform for dental specialists to track, manage, and convert every referral. Request a demo at referrallab.io.