Special List #6: Cosmetic Dentistry Is More Than Just Veneers with Dr. Chris Catalano

Dr. Souyias (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists.

Dr. Seda (00:08):
Welcome to the next iteration of The Special Lists, joined by Dr. Jason Souyias and Dr. Cameron Full. Today we have a special guest joining us, Dr. Chris Catalano. Chris is a general dentist in the San Francisco Bay area. Say, what's up, Chris?

Dr. Catalano (00:28):
What's up everybody? Thank you, you so much for having me. It's an honor to be on your podcast. I love what you're doing.

Dr. Seda (00:34):
I'll just read a quick brief bio here. Born and raised in Marin County, California, that's in Northern Cal. He now practices cosmetic dentistry there. He graduated from the University of Pacific School of Dentistry in 1991 and immediately dove into CE and cosmetic dentistry, learning from the best, and eventually started helping others in the profession by teaching and hands-on in veneers programs. He had an incredible and unique position with a Dr. David Hornbrook down in the San Diego area, which is a leader in cosmetic and dental education, traveling and learning with him. He's had a very interesting path to get where he is today. Chris, it's an honor to have you.

Dr. Catalano (01:23):
Thank you so much, Mike.

Dr. Souyias (01:25):
Right on.

Dr. Catalano (01:25):
Like I said before, it's an honor to be on this podcast.

Dr. Seda (01:29):
Thank you.

Dr. Catalano (01:29):
I think being in the education field, I think these podcasts are so important for dentistry. I think it elevates our profession, it connects us. It just makes it all really good for the dentist to learn more, and then ultimately, for our patients, I think we're able to deliver better dentistry by having these conversations.

Cameron Full (01:50):
Nice.

Dr. Catalano (01:50):
Good job you guys.

Dr. Souyias (01:52):
Yes, thanks.

Dr. Seda (01:53):
So I'll just give a little more background here, a little less formally. I've known Chris since 2007 when I moved to Northern California from residency in New York. Chris is a restorative dentist, and one that I'll kind of just let you speak a little bit about your practice, your passion, and how you do things differently. You definitely do things differently. And over the years, Chris has carved out a niche to practice dentistry in a way that I'll let you speak, but it really aligns with your passion, what you're good at, and we've treated so many patients together. It's a very special thing that you do. So, Chris, first, why don't you just briefly just kind of elaborate a little bit on your path, your history, kind of how you ended up where you are and what you do.

Dr. Catalano (02:39):
Yeah, yeah. So I graduated from UOP in 1991 in San Francisco, and at that time it was PFM, goal Crowns and Amalgam. That was what we were taught. And when I got out, I met a couple of guys from UCSF who were doing porcelain inlays and onlays, and they were learning this new adhesive cosmetic dentistry from Ray Bertolotti at UCSF. So I did a deep dive in that. I was so fascinated by it. I could not take enough classes. I was just enthralled by that whole world of adhesive dentistry. And I got down to San Diego and I ended up associating with David Hornbrook, who was, how could I put it? He was the rockstar of that world at that time. So this is early nineties, and David had also dove deep years before me and really mastered the understanding of adhesion and cosmetic dentistry and was on the forefront of hands-on education for dentists that wanted to learn these new procedures.

(03:50):
And so he set up courses, and the most famous one that he did was called PAC Live in San Francisco. It was at UOP. He teamed up with Bill Dorfman and they wanted to create a hands-on program that taught dentists from all over the United States how to do cosmetic dentistry so that you could learn these techniques that only the Manhattan and Beverly Hills guys knew. But basically you could come in from anywhere USA, come into UOP with your team, your patient, and learn from these amazing stars. And Rob Ritter, who you had on the last podcast, was one of those instructors, and I met him at that time.

Dr. Seda (04:32):
Shout out

Dr. Catalano (04:32):
Such a gracious guy. Super sweet.

Dr. Souyias (04:34):
Shout Dr. Ritter.

Dr. Catalano (04:36):
Yeah, he left an impression. He's an amazing guy and he's continued to do it. But anyhow, David creates this program. I end up going to almost every class at PAC Live. I just tag along with David and he just lets me hang out. I mean, I'm mopping the floor, sweeping, doing whatever. I assisted docs where their assistant could make it. I ended up prepping a couple cases and I just got all that. I just soaked it all in. It was amazing. I was so fortunate.

Dr. Souyias (05:06):
So you were exposed to this world, right?

Dr. Catalano (05:08):
Oh my God. And I got to know, these courses were 15 grand, maybe 10 to 15 grand. I forget the price. So guys would go one time and I was going every weekend just soaking it all in. It was just unbelievable. And then David is the consonant educator. When I was in his practice, he was so generous in teaching me photography, how to do preps, how to fit things. I mean, just I felt like, and I always say this, I hit the lotto, it was probably the greatest eight years of my dental career of learning. And then I ended up teaching with him in the Hornbrook group. So after nine 11 flights are, people aren't flying as much, and so he decides to do a road course. So we travel to Chicago. We basically go to University of Illinois Dental School and set up shop there and guys from all over come in and learn how to do these cosmetic procedures. So we do it Houston, Jersey, Florida,

Dr. Seda (06:09):
Kind of like the rock stars of dentistry.

Cameron Full (06:12):
Were you in a large bus?

Dr. Catalano (06:14):
I know. I wish.

Dr. Seda (06:15):
What was going on in that bus?

Cameron Full (06:16):
What was on the side of the bus?

Dr. Souyias (06:18):
Tour Bus, that's right.

Cameron Full (06:20):
What was it like? It was, it was like an operatory like picture?

Dr. Catalano (06:26):
I know. It was, yeah, it was so memorable. Life changing.

Dr. Seda (06:31):
So that dovetails us right into your list. So this is The Special List, and you've brought your list to the platform here. So let's kick it off. I mean, number one, the power of continuing education.

Dr. Catalano (06:45):
Absolutely. I can't speak more highly about that one issue. It is been so impactful in my life. And by the way, I'm not a lecturer, so it may come across in this podcast, but what I'm good at is I'm the hands-on clinical instructor. So I'm showing the dentist how to hold the handpiece, how to prep, fit the veneers. So that's my mastery in that is the hand skills. So I've been fortunate. I've always been into polishing and doing whatever it is in my life, and dentistry just fit it perfectly.

Dr. Seda (07:22):
Chris, I think it would be helpful just to kind of give us some frame of reference. What, you don't have a standard general dentistry practice. You kind of have two practices within one. Right, exactly. So if you could just speak a little bit as to, okay, ce, we'll get back to that in a moment, how important it is. But what did that do for the way you practice now? What's the structure of your practice? What are you passionate about? That kind of thing.

Dr. Catalano (07:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for me, continued education, and this is what I love about it, is people can go on different journeys. Some people go into snoring appliances, they'll go into TMJ, they'll go into holistic dentistry, and my path was cosmetic dentistry and adhesive. So I've really just focused on that. So in my practice, what I have is I have two distinct practices. I have a very strong general practice with amazing hygiene. I have two associates that are amazing, one older, one younger. So we have a variety of what we can offer the patient. And then I have a very strong cosmetic practice and it's divided. I have days that are all cosmetic, and then I have days that are general dentist dentistry. I'm still doing some general dentistry. I have a lot of fans that I have to take care of. And so I still have

Dr. Seda (08:45):
People come from all over the country to see Chris.

Dr. Catalano (08:48):
Yeah, I have that as a component. And these are long, it'll come up more on my list.

Cameron Full (08:52):
It's because it's Marin County. It's beautiful.

Dr. Catalano (08:54):
I know it is.

Dr. Seda (08:56):
It has nothing to do with Catalano.

Dr. Catalano (08:59):
But I'll have to say, I'm going to shoot a shout out to my office manager, Sandra, who really helped create this distinct practices. So I had a blend, and for a lot of dentists that are doing cosmetic dentistry, you run into, oh my God, how am I going to fit eight hours into, do I pre block? How do I do it? Or do I come in on my day off? You come in on a Saturday, do a big case because I had a high demand. She's like, let's just set up two distinct practices. So that's what we have.

Dr. Souyias (09:26):
Great idea.

Dr. Catalano (09:27):
It worked out great, and I love it. And it helped me fulfill my vision of what I wanted to do and be able to practice what I want to do.

Dr. Seda (09:33):
And just to make it a little more relevant too, Chris is a restorative dentist, general dentist, but he's a specialist in the sense that in our area, when patients ask who's the best at cosmetics aesthetics, 99% of people restorative dentists themselves even will refer their patients to Chris. And so he's really carved out a very niche, specialized practice focused on cosmetics and his passion for it.

Dr. Souyias (10:07):
Fantastic.

Dr. Seda (10:09):
Yeah. And so CE, it sounds like has played a huge part in it, not just participating in it, but even teaching in it as an active teaching.

Dr. Catalano (10:19):
And just seeing the rewards of it. So many dentists are what I've seen just traveling across the country. Dentists are often siloed in their own, they're alone in their practice. You can run into burnout. You hit these walls in a practice, and continued education just opens up these doors to, there's possibilities out there that you may never know. You can take a class and go, oh my gosh, that is the coolest thing. I want to learn more about it. And then your practice can move in that direction if you want, and you're able to follow that. I think there's a lot more avenues for education. I mean, this podcast is one, YouTube social media, so I just encourage striving for that.

Dr. Seda (11:04):
And I highly will put your Instagram page on the show notes so people can check it out. But Dr. Catalano has a beautiful Instagram page. It's really neat to follow. It's kind of a blend of his clinical cases as well as some personal stuff that he kind of sprinkles in there too. So you really get to see his humanity behind the dentistry that's being done. It's a beautiful Instagram page, so check it out.

Dr. Catalano (11:29):
Thank you.

Cameron Full (11:30):
It's because it's Marin County.

Dr. Catalano (11:34):
I'm in the land of, it's like blessed land. It's pretty amazing.

Dr. Seda (11:39):
Before we go on to the next bullet point, there's one other thing that I think might be neat to touch on, and that is, Chris, you've had exposure to some giants in dentistry. You talked about Dr. Hornbrook being one of them, another one, Art Degoni. And maybe you can just tell the audience who he is, the role he played in your life and the influence he had on your teaching style.

Dr. Catalano (12:01):
That guy was just a legend. He had a vision.

Dr. Seda (12:03):
He was the dean at UOP?

Dr. Catalano (12:04):
Yeah, UOP. But as the dean of UOP, he really transformed our school, and he was a hands-on guy. He would meet with students, he would address our class and say, Hey, you guys, this school has guests coming in. I don't want you riding the elevator. Take the stairs. If you see litter on the ground, pick it up.

(12:26):
And he said, if you're going to go out on Saturday and Sunday or whatever, 8:00 AM be here Mondays. He was like your dad in a way. His school was very personal to him. And what you're referring to as far as the education component, one of his visions was to have recent grads come in and teach because they knew he wanted the graduating dentist to teach the younger dental student, how did I get out? How did I make it out of UOP? And so he wanted this young energy to come in. So when I graduated, he asked if I could come back and do a preclinical course, and I'll never forget it before I stepped in the preclinical room, he met with me and he said, Hey, Chris, before you say anything negative to these students, I want you to say something positive. He was a firm believer in the humanistic model of teaching and building the student up rather than just kind of breaking stuff down. And I took it to heart. And it's definitely part of how I teach my students when I'm with them is try to be,

Dr. Seda (13:42):
And probably not just your students, but in your practice with other team members, assistants, hygienists, associates, we are finding ourselves in a climate where negativity and kind of a more destructive approach doesn't work, but rather encouragement, being positive, complimenting the good as you're working on what can be improved. And I think that's a approach that I think is going to carry over and be very relevant moving forward.

Dr. Catalano (14:14):
Absolutely.

Dr. Seda (14:14):
It sounds like he was kind of a visionary of that.

Dr. Catalano (14:16):
Yeah. Yeah. Dentistry's really hard, and we have good days, bad days. We have things that go well, things that don't go well, and pulling each other up and being gentle with each other I think does help.

Dr. Souyias (14:29):
Yes. It's so contrary to some of what you hear about the old style of teaching, don't you? I mean, the guys that were our instructors when we were in school that they'd talk about the stores like, oh, when I was in school, the instructor to take my stuff, look. So great job, smash it to pieces and say, do it again. I love that newer style of building people up rather than just smashing things together. It's so nice to hear that there's teachers out there advocating.

Cameron Full (14:54):
I'm taking notes,

Dr. Souyias (14:54):
Taking notes. You should be taking notes.

Dr. Seda (15:00):
And so I think that kind of flows well to the next bullet point here, which is,

Cameron Full (15:04):
Chris, I'm just here for comic relief.

Dr. Catalano (15:06):
No, I love it.

Dr. Seda (15:09):
I'm sure there was a lot of people that influenced you and your vision.

Cameron Full (15:14):
Yes.

Dr. Seda (15:16):
Your next item on your list is writing down your vision, right?

Dr. Catalano (15:21):
Yeah.

Dr. Seda (15:21):
Once you have it, it's hard. How do you actualize it? Well, let's start with writing it down. Elaborate on that.

Dr. Catalano (15:28):
Exactly. So this was a period in my life that was a real hard lesson for me to take. So I'll just briefly tell you. I do my deep dive in dentistry, in cosmetic dentistry, and I go down to San Diego and I'm working as an associate, and I'm so eager to buy a practice. I'm out four years, and I'm like, my friends are buying practices. I just want to own a practice. And I didn't have good business sense. It was just this young kid with tons of energy, didn't want to listen to anybody. And I ended up buying a practice in Encinitas, California, which was so beautiful. I was surfing and having fun, and I just wanted this practice. I wanted to do all my cosmetic dentistry. And the problem was I didn't have an attorney help organize the contract. It was a handshake deal with an accountant. And the crucial part was that the lease ended midway through my buyout. I know this is just a nightmare. Anyhow, I'm like this idealistic idiot going in buying a product. And the senior dentist was like, they'll renew it. They always do. And sure enough they didn't. And so immediately I hire a consultant. I fire my accounting firm, I hire two attorneys. I hire a new accounting firm, and my consultant is Andrea Clawson. And she was amazing. And she came in and she said, okay, you've got a tough road ahead. I want you to write down your vision. And I had never done that before. She wrote down, just write down every detail that you want to create and what you want to do. So I did. I wrote down everything. I mean, I still have it to this day. It's actually, I've carried it, my whole practice.

Cameron Full (17:26):
Nice.

Dr. Catalano (17:26):
Anyhow, I was able to ramp up production in this little practice. I secured loan money to move into a new suite. I signed a new contract with another, A guy that was building, he was in the process of building this building and signed a contract, had an architect design the suite, a contractor, but the guy that was building this building ran out of money and he couldn't finish his building. And the time is ticking. I'm getting kicked out of this suite. And so I didn't have that many options. I didn't have that much time. And so the practice ends up being sold, but it wasn't in my favor. So I ended up filing chapter seven. It was a nightmare. But what's crazy, and this is the part where the vision comes in, so I have his vision. So this happens on a Friday, Saturday morning, I get a call from Andrea Clawson and she says, Hey, Chris, David Hornbrook just had a boating accident and he lost part of his thumb, and he was wondering if you could come in and help out his practice while he's injured.

(18:37):
So he wants you to meet the team and see if they give you a thumbs up. So I'm like, holy crap. I mean, here I'm at the lowest point in my life. And then I'm like, I mean, I was in David's study club in San Diego. I was taking tons of classes from him, so he's like my idol. So I remember that Monday morning, I'm just putting a coat and tie, and I'm rushing down there and I'm interviewing with them, and they're like, alright, you're good. Thumbs up. We want you here. And so I ended up, that was my role. I became an associate there helping him out, transition all these patients and quickly learning the high level of dentistry that he was doing. I mean, I walked into a dentistry that I had been studying and dabbling into dentistry that was like, I mean, at another level, I mean David is world-class, but this is where my vision came in. And this is so strange and I understand it now, but as I looked around as I was there, I looked at my vision and I realized that everything that I wrote down on my vision was in David's practice. It was like I believe that God was steering me in that direction in some way because I could not stop the downfall of my practice. Whatever I did, I was trying to control everything from negotiating the lease to doing everything, and I could not stop it.

Dr. Seda (20:07):
What were some of the things on that vision list that you saw?

Dr. Catalano (20:10):
Yeah. Well, I wrote down, I want to be the best cosmetic dentist in the world. I knew that would push me to keep taking as many classes possible. I would never run out of, keep driving to be the best. We make a difference in our lives. We change lives by helping patients love their smile, allowing that full expression of who they really are. Our teams shared culture of compassion, integrity, and excellence. At the core of our practice, our patients are at the center of our attention and purpose. We are fully present with our patients. I mean, I go on and on.

Dr. Seda (20:48):
These are all important, right? Because just as a side note, Chris and I collaborate a lot clinically on cases and patients will come in and the stage has been set with that being their experience. So it's a totally different patient sitting in my chair than one coming from a different practice with whom the communication's poor things aren't being explained. They're not the focus of the attention of the team and the doctor. And so it makes my job so much more enjoyable to collaborate with someone that has those values and shares those values and implements those values. And I think it really changes the way we practice, and it can't be understated enough. And you've got to write it down. You've got to think about these things, and then you've got to share it with those around you. It's not just that it's got to be in here and in your own heart. We've got to share it with those that we practice with and collaborate with, whether it's our colleagues, our teams, consultants, whoever it is.

Dr. Catalano (21:55):
I absolutely a hundred percent agree. Yeah. I share this with my team now.

Dr. Seda (22:00):
How do you share it?

Cameron Full (22:01):
Chris is it the same document? Is it the same actual document that you wrote a number of years ago?

Dr. Catalano (22:07):
Yeah.

Cameron Full (22:07):
What?

Dr. Seda (22:07):
Is it on a scroll from the 17 hundreds?

Cameron Full (22:11):
Can you show it? Put it on camera? This is incredible. Typed

Dr. Seda (22:14):
It out. I know Chris looks like he's 25, but

Dr. Catalano (22:18):
1996,

Cameron Full (22:19):
But it's Marin County.

Dr. Seda (22:20):
Hold it up the camera. Hold it up to the camera.

Dr. Catalano (22:24):
Yes.

Cameron Full (22:24):
Nice.

Dr. Catalano (22:26):
And I read it, so I explain all these different points to my team. I'll just say,

Cameron Full (22:33):
Wow, this is wonderful.

Dr. Catalano (22:35):
Yeah. Yeah. It's like I think to manifest something, you really have to have that vision, I think. And one of the things I've learned is possibilities are out there, and you don't know what's going to happen. I think you just write down your vision and just dream big and you never know.

Cameron Full (22:53):
So tell us, take us back to that second, that what made you do it was your consultant, right? Yeah. And then you went home that night and you just got out a pen and paper and you're like, and how long ago was this?

Dr. Catalano (23:07):
It was in 1996.

Cameron Full (23:09):
Awesome. Wow.

Dr. Catalano (23:10):
Yeah. And I put on classical music. I was in a meditative state. I was like, it's so funny. I was in that surfer land doing yoga and surfing and doing meditation classes, and I believe my state is doing now. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I think I just got zoned and I was just writing everything out.

Dr. Souyias (23:32):
That's awesome.

Dr. Catalano (23:33):
Yeah.

Dr. Souyias (23:34):
Do you think some of the power of it comes from actually putting it pen to paper, right?

Cameron Full (23:40):
Yeah.

Dr. Catalano (23:40):
Yes, I agree. What I've heard and what I've been told is write every detail down to the nth degree that you can of what you want to do.

Cameron Full (23:54):
So how does it feel though to look at that today and know that you've accomplished the majority, if not all of the things on there?

Dr. Catalano (24:06):
I know it is actually surreal. I really was thinking about it. And I'm also working with a patient who does branding and marketing, who's just one of the best in the world at it. And he asked me some of these questions also. But it does it, it's made me feel really great inside. I do feel like there's this bigger, like I said, I feel like God, we all have these journeys in our lives and who we become, and I believe there's that kind of intervention also, I think.

Dr. Seda (24:38):
Yeah, there's fate, but we can also sometimes massage fate, right?

Dr. Catalano (24:41):
Yeah.

Dr. Seda (24:42):
And so it's like the combination of the two.

Cameron Full (24:46):
I'm not going to run with that, but we are in northern California.

Dr. Souyias (24:49):
Where's the comic relief on that?

Cameron Full (24:51):
I'm not running with the massage joke.

Dr. Seda (24:53):
But I'll say this, and this kind of leads us to the next step, which is, so you, you've got this vision, you're executing it, and then you're bringing people in to help you. You've got a team and also you've got associates, right? And so that leads us kind of to the next step in the list, which is you want to go ahead and read it, message to associates.

Dr. Catalano (25:18):
Yeah, message associates. Because I thought, as I was sitting there, I'm thinking, okay, you file for chapter seven and you're like, I can't own a practice. It's like, great. And I'm meeting the greatest dentist all over the country that owned their practices. And I'm like, I'm an associate. And I think I was too ashamed and embarrassed to tell them what had happened. And so I just kind of was the associate. And so I was an associate all the way until 2019 when I bought this practice. And so I have a lot of experience as an associate. I might be like the longest running associate, but when you do high level dentistry, you can produce a lot. So I'm doing full mouth reconstructions in practices. So I mean, I was doing okay and I didn't have any of the management issues, but what I learned in that process, and I wrote it down here, is a message to associates is to build a brand.

(26:18):
As an associate, you are building a brand. And I say brand of excellence, because you are in these practices no matter who's owning it, you want to build a brand that you are building on. So your brand of excellence is basically your card of is how you get people in your schedule, because you really want to have raving fans ultimately to build your practice. I mean, sure, you could sign up on an insurance list, they'll come in and see you, but in the fee for service world, if you want to really make a difference, if you want that, you've got to build a fan base and it's built on. What I've noticed as an associate is the team from the assistants, the hygienist, the front, they have to respect you to fill your schedule. They have to trust you. These teams of hygienist, hygienists, assistants, they love their patients, they want the best for 'em, and sometimes they feel nervous of having an associate do the dentistry. But if this associate is building a brand of excellence and doing the very best he can and showing how much he cares about the patients, the team will acknowledge that and start to enroll patients to do treatment for that, so that the associate doesn't have to demand, Hey, I want that person in my schedule. It's like, Hey, guess what? You went viral in this practice. People want to see you.

Cameron Full (27:51):
Joy is contagious. And the joy that you have in your work, I've never met you before, and it just seeps through the screen.

Dr. Seda (28:05):
He reeks of passion.

Cameron Full (28:09):
That type of calling is contagious. And it's no wonder that you're where you're at now, that's a compliment to you and all the stuff that you're talking about, but the reality is that all you have to do is care and really, really care and just really care about what you do. And when you do that, synchronicity happens. The world tips in your favor, and you're a testament to that because you were an associate for 1,752 years, and now you have your own practice and people come to see you, and they were coming to see you before your name was on the door.

Dr. Seda (28:46):
Yeah, yeah. What this also does, Chris, you touched on something really interesting, and that is the paradigm of associateship, the way you just stated, it just turns it upside down, right? Correct. Most people get out of school and they're, as you kind of touched on it, I forget the words you used, but they're like dangerously legal, right? Yeah. But they don't know that. And so they get associateships and think like it,

Dr. Souyias (29:12):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Cameron Full (29:13):
That was not it. That was not it.

Dr. Seda (29:15):
No, those weren't Chris's words. Those weren't Chris's words.

Dr. Souyias (29:17):
Dangerously legal.

Cameron Full (29:21):
No, it wasn't even close. What was it, Chris? Like a beginner. What was it?

Dr. Catalano (29:25):
Safe beginner.

Cameron Full (29:26):
Safe beginner.

Dr. Seda (29:26):
Safe beginner.

Dr. Souyias (29:26):
There we go.

Dr. Seda (29:30):
Get your minds out of the gutter.

Cameron Full (29:32):
No. Okay.

Dr. Seda (29:34):
But the point is, you come out and then you expect that they're just going to give you patience. And I've come across so many young associates that get into practices and then wonder why their schedules aren't full and they become frustrated. And rather than that being the focus, the focus should really be about who am I? What's my brand? What do I love? Get passionate, be diligent, work hard. And then all the hygienists, all the assistants, all the administrators in a practice get behind you. They start feeding you more patients. Patients recommend other patients. And it's not the practice that builds you up as a practitioner. It's yourself. And having the work ethic and the passion to do that, I think is something that's lost a lot from what I hear from a lot of my colleagues that have associates.

Dr. Catalano (30:28):
Yes. Yeah,

Dr. Souyias (30:29):
It is. It snowballs in a positive direction.

Dr. Catalano (30:32):
Yeah. I wasn't shy to help the team out cleaning a room or wiping down, helping the assistants do their job, whatever I needed to do. I think you have to be part of that team, even though you're the doctor, you're not the owner, you're part of the team. And so you really want to gel. And I think as far as the excellence goes, when I do, let's say a composite restoration or a crown, I want the hygienist to check my work. I want to impress them. I'm doing dentistry for them to look at my work and say, wow, that guy does amazing margins. They're clean. And then they also want to see you take care of the patients

Dr. Seda (31:12):
I know you read a lot of books on this topic. We had talked about this book, Raving Fans are going viral. Can you talk a little bit about that? I think that's kind of relevant here.

Dr. Catalano (31:25):
Yeah. I think Raving Fans came out back in the nineties, and it was about these specialty businesses that guys created, that people went out of their way to go to because they just had such great customer service. They treated the patient really, really well. They went out of their way to really help the customer. And I think now the way the younger generation can understand it would be going viral, like let's say I said a cupcake shop, but let's say your bakery or your sandwich shop, and you have the two hour line of people that they've heard about on Instagram and they're like, oh my God, I'm going to go to that. And there's a guy in there just working so hard, making the greatest sandwich ever, and then people will wait forever. And I think that's with dentistry, you can create that same viralness by really going out of your way to be excellent and really stand out. For instance, when I first got out, I wasn't really that busy. I went with my patient to the oral surgeon office when they had an appointment or the periodontist, and I went with my SAT because they were nervous about getting,

Dr. Seda (32:38):
And you guys, you could tell he is not making this up. Look at this guy.

Dr. Catalano (32:42):
I would go in the morning with them and I would go, alright, I'm here with you. And I walked him into the office and then I

Cameron Full (32:47):
What kind of coffee do you like, can I get you coffee on the way?

Dr. Catalano (32:50):
Exactly. I was doing whatever I could. I mean, now I'm so busy I can't, but now I can't stop the flow. So that's what happens when you create this. You just can't stop it. And I don't need to really advertise. I do love Instagram, so I can show my work. I use that as a way to, but that's another thing too. As an associate, build your brand by taking photos of everything you do so that you can show before and afters.

Dr. Seda (33:17):
Photography. Chris takes beautiful photos. And so there's one aspect of it, which is you want to be good at it, right? Whether it's the margins on a composite or a full mouth. But the other piece of it is the people, the patients, loving your patients. And after knowing Chris for 20 years, every time we talk about a patient, we don't always just focus on the dentistry. There's also a human behind it. And Chris is really good at digging into who that person is, what makes them shine. And so next item on your list is genuinely love your patients. Can you just talk a little bit about your philosophy, your approach with that?

Cameron Full (34:02):
Chris, what did your dad do? What did your dad do? What did your mom do?

Dr. Catalano (34:08):
My mom was a homemaker, but I will say this, my dad was kind of out of my life early on, so I was always looking for fathers. It's weird. I look at all my role models and I will have to say that the only reason I'm here is actually my good friend Mark Geisburger and his father, Lou Geisburger, who

Dr. Seda (34:29):
Was, shout out Dr. Geisberger.

Dr. Catalano (34:30):
Yeah, shout out Geisberger. So Mark was a high school classmate of mine, and I went to college with him and dental school with him, and his father was a dentist, and I spent a ton of time with that family. And Lou was a leader, a visionary guy. He loved dentistry. He had so much wisdom and he supported me and was behind me my whole, so I would never be here without him. And Mark, mark was another huge support and we're still great friends. But yeah, he was someone that gave me such positive, positive role model to follow. So I think that was

(35:10):
My person. And he treated people with like, oh, that guy was the best at patient care, and just amazing. But yeah, I think another component to having a successful practice is to generally love your patients. I don't mean the romantic way, but loving them, understanding them, getting to know them. Who are they? I mentioned Jim Pride had a really simple way to kind of help you in that process. You see so many patients. Jim Pride was a dentist who started the Pride Institute, and it was essentially, it was like business classes for dentists to learn how to run a small business. So he broke down a lot of the components and created systems to make your practice go better as a business. But anyhow, he had this little piece of paper, these are for paper charts. It was a pink piece of paper that had personal comments on it.

(36:07):
And you'd write down, this patient got married, or they live in this area, they have three kids. And you write that down. And every interaction you had with that patient, you'd write down anything that was new. And by just doing that exercise, you would remember them. So when you see them, you're like, oh, I know that guy, because it is hard. You see so many patients in your day. But that has been such a great, I don't know. And I enjoy that part. I mean, we're with these patients all day. I love the interaction, the stories. Oh my God. I mean, the things that I've learned from patients and all the wisdom and insights, and I mean, I don't know, it's the best part of dentistry in a lot of ways for me is these patients that I've met. So I think just embracing that really the patients understand it. I think Cameron was saying, you know it, right? I mean, if your doctor cares about you, you kind of feel it. And if they don't just, I don't know. I think you're just another doc and they're like, nah, the price is too high. I'm going somewhere else.

(37:13):
But if you're really caring, it's like, okay, your price is a little high. It's like it's worth it. I'm going to see they know me and they care about me. They're looking out for me.

Cameron Full (37:23):
Yeah. Chris Ramsey does an incredible bit during his lecture where he hands out two crowns and he says, this one's this much money and this one's this much money. What's the difference? And I love the part of this, this talk that he does that because he says, this one comes with me.

Dr. Catalano (37:42):
Yes. Wow.

Dr. Seda (37:43):
Love it.

Cameron Full (37:43):
And I'm the difference.

Dr. Seda (37:44):
Love.

Dr. Catalano (37:45):
Wow. That's super powerful. That is

Cameron Full (37:47):
So true. And he does it, and he nails it because he's, it's a Raiders partner, gregarious guy, bigger than life guy. And so just along the lines with what you're saying is what allows for me to be that way? What do I bring to the table outside of this thing right here? And that's all this, right? That's everything else that comes with it. That's the leadership in your practice. But at the end of the day, the crown is a crown. So I have to exemplify those other things that make it as special as it can be.

Dr. Seda (38:21):
Absolutely.

Dr. Souyias (38:22):
So true.

Dr. Seda (38:24):
And so it's our teams, it's our passion. It's the connections we make, but then we also go home, right? And dentistry has this way of, it's hard to just shut it off when you go home, Chris, I know you've got a beautiful wife, a beautiful daughter, and you're one of these guys that really seems to just balance it all really well. I mean, you're athletic, you're fit, you've got an amazing family. Just talk a little bit.

Cameron Full (38:54):
He's got man crush, man.

Dr. Seda (38:58):
Tell me, tell me

Cameron Full (38:58):
It is s showing up.

Dr. Souyias (38:59):
You a man crush. Seds.

Dr. Seda (39:01):
Definitely. What's not to love about this. Look at him. When people say things that are smarter than what I think of, I'll joke and I'll be like, you're not smarter than me, right? Well, when I run into guys like Chris, I'm like, you're not better looking than me. But anyway, Chris, continue.

Dr. Catalano (39:22):
Yeah, no, I learned this from a veterinarian friend of mine in San Diego where he talked to me about the work hat in the family hat. And when you're coming home, take off that work hat and be there with your family. And it's so important. Also, shout out to my wife, because my wife Sarah, I dunno if you've noticed this, but in the disc profile, I'm an I, so I'm not like, I have great ideas and I'm a great people person talking and all that stuff, but all the details, I don't have a lot of those great skills, but my wife does. And my office manager does. And so they help me. They balance me by keeping in. My wife helps me and my practice. She does a lot of the business aspects of my practice, and she's also a clinical pharmacist at a hospital, and she raises my daughter. So she's an amazing, she can do it all, but I have to remember when I get home, take off that hat and just enjoy her.

Dr. Seda (40:21):
Actually, a colleague once said to me a few months ago, it's sad that we go to work and we give 95% of our energy to our patients, and then you get home, and if there's only 5% left for family. When you look back years later, you're really going to regret that. So really try to keep that in mind as you're allocating packets of energy through your day and keep some of those for the end of the day when you get home to those you love.

Dr. Catalano (40:51):
Wow, that's great advice.

Dr. Seda (40:55):
I know Cameron and Jason also, they're family men. We're lucky that we're in a profession that helps us connect with people and we can be artistic and express ourselves. It's challenging, but to have families that love us and make it all worthwhile is the best it is. So

Cameron Full (41:15):
Yeah, I don't connect with patients all day. I connect with dentists, actually,

Dr. Seda (41:20):
This is true.

(41:22):
What does that say about you, Cameron?

Cameron Full (41:23):
I dunno. Sick. I dunno. Who's sick or me or you guys?

Dr. Souyias (41:32):
I got a question for Chris, if you don't mind.

Dr. Seda (41:34):
Go for it.

Dr. Souyias (41:35):
Chris, tell me what you look for, why you and Michael work together. Not that I'm questioning Michael, but what is it you're looking for in your partners to do interdisciplinary care with?

Dr. Seda (41:49):
Great question.

Dr. Catalano (41:50):
Yeah, that's a great question. I definitely look for those specialists that are on that same path that I'm on as far as delivering excellence and can they deliver the type of work that can they compliment me basically? And do they have that kind of passion? And Mike has that. Mike's had it ever since I first met him. I felt it right away that longing to continually educate himself and to follow that path. So Mike is amazing, clinically great with our patients, got an amazing team. His team is so well orchestrated. So it's like all those pieces. I know when my patients are going to go over there, they're going to have a great experience. And then he's,

Dr. Seda (42:40):
What else?

Dr. Catalano (42:40):
He's a stud.

Dr. Seda (42:42):
Don't stop now.

Dr. Souyias (42:44):
I've been told it's easy to feel Michael's passion.

Dr. Catalano (42:46):
Yeah. So I think that is clinical excellence. And how's

Dr. Seda (42:51):
Huge. It's huge. Ginormous. Just kidding.

Dr. Souyias (42:58):
Sorry.

Dr. Seda (42:58):
Thanks, Chris. It's very humbling to hear you say that. Thank you. One thing I will say, working with Chris, and we can kind of just touch on this for a second. Interdisciplinary cases and the way they're managed and communicated, Chris and I photograph almost everything we do. And that's before we start through the treatment process and then after and when we're collaborating on cases, we can collaborate effectively, efficiently, in real time, pretty much without a lot of time wasted and move patients through treatment quickly. Because we're exchanging emails, we're exchanging photos, we're very clear. When Chris needs something, his referrals are concise, they're clear. I know exactly what my role needs to be. And it really helps to have a quarterback quarterbacking. And so my suggestion to the restorative docs out there is to really try to focus and hone your skills on quarterbacking. Being as knowledgeable as you can be about how you treatment, plan, what your goals are, restoratively, and then bringing your specialists into the fold and asking them what can they do, what can they not do, what are the limits of what they can do? And really communicating with them in a way so that everyone's kind of pitching in on what their part is. And it just makes it so much more fun and thorough and comprehensive.

Dr. Catalano (44:33):
Yeah, exactly. And you get a better outcome. I think you're really getting focused.

Dr. Seda (44:40):
Well, guys, this has been fun, Dr. Chris

Dr. Catalano (44:43):
So fun. I know.

Dr. Seda (44:44):
I want to thank you for your time and your passion. Absolutely. This is late in the day for Chris, so just imagine his energy levels at eight in the morning. And guys, as always, it's been fun. Thank you for your time. We'll see you guys soon.

Cameron Full (45:01):
Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Souyias (45:02):
Thank you.

Dr. Seda (45:02):
See you next time on The Special Lists.

Dr. Souyias (45:07):
Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists featuring a special list from a specialist. Got a question for us? Send us a message at speciallists.com with two Ls. Transform your referral workflow with Referral Lab, the purpose-built platform for dental specialists to track, manage, and convert every referral. Request a demo at referrallab.io.