Special List #3 - Beyond the Operatory: Leadership Lessons and Life Balance with Dr. Jennifer Doobrow

Dr. Jason Souyias (00:00):
Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists.

Dr. Michael Seda (00:09):
Alright, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Special List with me, joining me this evening is Dr. Jason Souiyas, Cameron Full and the honorable Dr. Jennifer Doobrow. Jennifer, welcome to the show.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (00:29):
Hi everyone.

Dr. Michael Seda (00:31):
Jennifer Doobrow is a board certified periodontist and the owner and CEO of Periodontal and Implant Associates located in Cullman, Alabama. She earned her DMD at the Medical University of South Carolina and received her certificate in Periodontics from the University of Alabama at Birmingham. In 2010, she serves as the president for the Alabama Dental Association, immediate past president for the Southern Academy of Periodontology, Board of Trustee of the American Academy of Periodontology, and is also a faculty member for the Picos Institute. We are so excited to have you today.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (01:10):
Well, I am honored to be here, not just because we are on such an incredible podcast, but because I am with my dear friends that I respect so highly. So thank you all for including me.

Dr. Michael Seda (01:19):
We're extremely excited to have you tell us a little bit about where you're calling in from and we'll kind of go from there.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (01:27):
Yeah, sounds great. So Dr. Seda, I am super impressed you even we're able to pronounce Cullman because I've heard Colfman, Cool Mean we get it all. And you also,

Cameron Full (01:37):
We are cool men. We are cool men.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (01:39):
Yes. But you also get some y'all's because you asked me where I'm located and I am in Alabama. And very long story short. So yes, our practice is in Cullman, but we live in Birmingham, which is kind of the metropolitan area of central Alabama. And the way and how that happened was, as you mentioned, I went to UAB for my residency, great fortune that I was there because very suddenly and very sadly during my three years of my periodontal residency, between my first and second year, my father, who was my biggest cheerleader, my mentor, my best friend, he passed away suddenly and he had two practices, two periodontal practices. So we were living in Birmingham and the practices were each an hour away. And like I said, by the grace of God I was at my residency because my faculty let me work half a day in the residency and work the practices half a day. So live in Birmingham, but commute an hour every day to work gives me lots of time to talk to each of you on the phone.

Dr. Michael Seda (02:40):
So Jennifer, as you know, the structure of our show is we all come with a special list, things that we prioritize, think about, work on things we wish we would have learned earlier. And so we're just going to turn it over to you. We're going to start with the first item on your list. There's no right or wrong answers.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (03:04):
Sounds good. Let's go.

Cameron Full (03:06):
So she mentioned that she wanted to talk about being a leader in the community. Jen, let's talk a little bit about what that means to you. And I know we've had many conversations about all of your external involvements and I know what kind of a toll it takes, but also a privilege that you feel it is and it is to be able to service your community in such the way that you do. But it's not without a tremendous amount of work from you to get to where you are, to be that leader not only in your localized community, but the greater community in which you're attempting to serve. So let's talk a little bit about that because I think it's something that's super important and unique to you and some of that knowledge should be passed to others on not only why you choose to be involved at the level that you are, but how in the hell you manage to. I mean, I think when this bio came over I was like president and the president and the president and the president and the president of the club with the president's club. And I was like, that's Jen. Anyway, Jen, talk to us a little bit about it.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (04:07):
Well, you totally hit the word, but you probably didn't even realize it. And many of us listening to this podcast probably heard her start with your why, right? Simon Sinek. I mean now the new Simon Sinek start with your why. I've heard a lot of live in the dash and it's kind of that same concept and it's really all about for me, as I mentioned Michael, you asked me where I live and I gave you a little bit more of where but also the why of why we are here. When I lost my biggest cheerleader, there were so many individuals that picked me up and I became a sponge, literally. You did this introduction, Michael, that Dr. Picos, I'm part of his institute. I mean I had some of the most incredible mentors that I could ever imagine and I'm beyond blessed for that. And so my why was I was a sponge because I didn't know anything else. I didn't know any better and now I have the opportunity to pay that forward.

Cameron Full (05:00):
But Jen, when you made that, you talked about your why with dad and stuff and totally get that, but that commitment, what was that first leadership commitment that you decided to take on out of practice? What was the first one?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (05:16):
Gosh, I mean you say out of practice, but Cam it started so early. I mean I would go all the way back, literally, I won't take you there many, many, many years we'd have to go back. But I mean it started even in elementary and junior high. It was just something that innately was inside of me that I always felt compelled to lead and to guide and to serve. And now those of you on this podcast that may not have had that driving force since you were in kindergarten, maybe there's another internal aspect of you that's lit that fire that says somebody has given to me and now I want to give back and I want to lead. So I wish I could tell you it was when I got out of practice, but it's always been there. And then because of the opportunities now that I've had the great fortune to have, I've been able to continue to evolve into that leadership role.

Cameron Full (06:05):
But what was the first dental leadership role that you took?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:08):
Gosh, you're going to put me on the spot.

Cameron Full (06:08):
Which was it? Come on

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:09):
Now I got to think

Cameron Full (06:10):
We're on the spot and you're being recorded. So we're doing this man.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:13):
We are doing this. Okay. First

Cameron Full (06:15):
You don't give me the, don't get to give me the vague response that you just did. Let's talk about the first

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:20):
Blowing me up now. I know it's all on. So do I get to give it back during the podcast too? Is that what happens?

Dr. Jason Souyias (06:25):
Oh yeah,

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:26):
Yeah,

Dr. Jason Souyias (06:26):
That's take it to, that's what makes it fun.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (06:29):
Gosh, the first one, you know what? The first one was actually in residency. So in dental and residency, what have you, I was involved, I was the president. We had a dental, actually, I dunno if y'all had this in dental school, we actually had fraternities. So I happened to be in leadership in the fraternity, was president in the fraternity, but in dental school and residency, so that was dental school residency, we actually had the's, an ambassador program to the American Academy of Periodontology Foundation and that was really the opportunity to bridge that gap. And then it kind of helped me, sow my oats into what I really thought leadership was going to look like moving forward. Yeah, but I mean really Cam, it goes so deep. I wasn't trying to teeter totter.

Cameron Full (07:08):
Well, it's a who you are.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (07:10):
It's who I am. Yeah.

Dr. Jason Souyias (07:13):
I've got a question for you. Coming off of that first leadership academy for third year perios, what are some of the reasons you heard that surprised you?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (07:21):
So it's funny because we were, as faculty of the program, we were giving a lot of our whys to kind of guide them. But Jason, the interesting, really crazy interesting experience was the questions that we got and they were super heartfelt and all over the map and one really stuck with me and it was actually to our entire panel. So there was probably 200 something people in the room and one attendee said, what do I do? I'm not sure where I'm going. Let's say I end up in some type of setting where I'm basically, it's a machine, you just have to roll out the procedures and many of us know those type of practices. And the question was, and the president of American Dental Association was even in the room and answered this. The question was what do I do when I get in a compromising situation and this person's paying my salary and telling me what I'm supposed to do, but I'm not comfortable with the situation.

(08:14):
And all of us on this podcast have been in that situation before. The uncomfortable, and something I always say to that to give you back that answer, sometimes we have to be, and a lot of times actually, we have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. Cam, you and I talk about it all the time. We got to be comfortable being uncomfortable. So Jason, that was actually the biggest kind of surprise on the weekend was the magnitude of the questions we got. And they were real, they were profound, they were organic and these residents really wanted to know and it was really neat, really empowering. Yeah, it's awesome.

Dr. Jason Souyias (08:50):
I know you're active not only locally in Alabama, your practice, all of that, but you also take a pretty big role nationally and in my talks to a lot of periodontists and general dentists, people feel like they're losing faith in organized dentistry and you've been a big part of it and a big advocate. What would you say to those people that feel like they're losing faith in organized dentistry cuz it doesn't have our backs as private practice clinicians.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (09:17):
I love that question. I feel that a lot. And I'll tell you in anything that we do, there's always noise, right? I mean, we have these right here, mine's on do not disturb Cam, don't worry, nothing's going to go off. But there's so much noise and it's at our fingertips. And it's not just dentistry, it's Cam, you've got a young daughter in school, we all say that we've got growing kids. Same with thing with you Jason. We are already hearing the noise at that level. So I would tell all those individuals that if you're going to participate in the noise, know, have intelligent conversations, know what you're talking about. Because I get questions all the time and I'm like, so what information are you giving to me that you didn't just find here? And how do you know it's not hearsay? So that's something I hear all the time.

(10:04):
I also hear whatever you hear it from about church or temple or any organization, what's in it for me? What am I going to get out of it? And that's the generations that are here now. We all know this. What's in it for me? So it's again, Jason not trying to deflect the question, but it's a bigger question. It's not even just necessarily about organized dentistry. It's the mindset of where we are now and we got to get out of that shift of this fixed mindset and really start building on what that concept of growth mindset is. If you're going to ask questions, know that they need to be founded on actual factual information.

Dr. Jason Souyias (10:37):
What I hear you saying is rather than saying, what do I get out of doing this? Maybe the better question is to ask, how can I serve others by participating in this?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (10:45):
Yeah, absolutely. Super profound what you just said.

Cameron Full (10:49):
So Jen, with all the talk about the leadership stuff and the trajectory that you're on, where does it stop? I think that you're in your prime right now and your practice is growing and it's demanding more of you. And this is a hard question, right? It's a hard question, but that's the meat of this type of conversation is do you see at a point where you need to spend more time on one or the other?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (11:18):
Yeah, I mean, Cam, what you're asking is a super awesome, profound question. I think unfortunately none of us have, we say with our patients, right? None of us have a crystal ball. So I can't tell you that I don't know what opportunities are going to be there. That's number one. I mean, I have now learned in my latter years that you have to prioritize, you and I have talked about this so many times. Michael, you and I have talked about this a ton, right? Number one for me is family. Number two is practice and faith, right? And number three is going to be my involvement in other things. But you have to find a balance and that balance is not seamless and it's always going to have its challenges. And so Cam, I don't know, I'll see what opportunities present, but you're right, you have showed me more than most individuals.

(12:11):
You can only be so good at so much at one given time. You got to be present, you got to be intentional about everything that you do because life is too damn short. I mean, I say it all the time ya'll, I got to throw in a y'all. I mean you ask Michael where I am, but I got to say whether I'm speaking in Bocata Columbia or whether I'm speaking in the Asian market or Latin American market or Canada or the United States, my message is always going to be the same. That you've got to be intentional about everything that you do, whether it's in practice, whether it's in life. And most importantly, this is what every one of us on this podcast knows. And I say this as well, from the hilltops through adversity comes opportunity

Cameron Full (13:04):
For sure.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (13:04):
We all know that. And so you just got to continue to climb that mountain. Whatever that looks like for you though. My why, my mountain is going to be totally different than y'all's. Cam, I mean, how many conversations do we had about finishing your PhD Doctor Full, we're so proud of you. But it was a lot for you. You had to figure out how to do the balance.

Dr. Michael Seda (13:26):
I just want to go back to one thing, Jen, we were discussing your role in organized dentistry and there's so many things that I'm sure are listed in terms of your to-do list as an organization. Could you just talk a little bit regarding what are some of the things on your plate with regards to that? Some of the projects you guys are working on, aspects of dentistry that you're trying to influence, just so our listeners and us can get a sense of what's going on behind the scenes, what may we expect in the coming years as dentistry changes and evolves with so much like the technology, AI, any of that stuff. What are you guys working on in the background?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (14:11):
So as Cam said, I've got some different hats, right? So I've got Jason, you mentioned it too, I've got a state hat president of Alabama Dental Association. So I'll give you kind of that first. And it is actually something that's being discussed all over the country in different levels. So if you remember a couple years ago, Massachusetts passed a huge, what's called a D-L-R M-L-R bill. So dental loss ratio, medical loss ratio. So DLR is obviously our world dental loss ratio, but for the longest time we use the terminology MLR because that's really all that it was, right? A medical loss ratio. And basically in a huge nutshell, what that means is what our patients are getting from their premiums. So every one of us will say that, and many of us are fee for service. In our practice, we file as a courtesy to our patients, but we're fee for service.

(15:03):
And a lot of the reason is because of this right here, because dental reimbursements, think about what's happening in the medical world, are subpar. So what you're going to hear around the country is these different states are working to get more helpful benefits for their patients. That's really what it comes down to. And Alabama right now currently is I would say probably one of the least or the least when it comes to reimbursements as far as how things are for us. So that's huge for us. The second thing, which is statewide for me, but then on a national level, Michael, I believe in this huge is transparency and putting the message out there. So we started this past month, I did our first inaugural presidential address for the state just to keep everybody in the loop of what's going on. And Jason, you asked about AAP, well, you saw more of that now from the AAP where the president's giving a message. You've now seen that from the ADA where the ADA is giving the message. So that transparency is becoming, that communication is key, especially because again, going back, this is what the generations want. They want an Instagram takeover, they want a 45 second, 3o second, 45 second blurb, and that's all they want. So kind of in a roundabout way, the local stuff is more for us on the dental loss ratio side, the insurance side, but on a more national perspective, it's the transparency and communication aspect.

Dr. Jason Souyias (16:32):
A lot of people are talking about Alabama's solution to the hygiene shortage. Do you want to talk about that a little bit and how people in the state of Alabama are feeling about that?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (16:41):
So Alabama had a program for over 55, 60 years now, and it's called the Alabama Dental Hygiene Program, ADHP. Okay. We all know workforce is such an issue right now. You want to talk about national issues. I mean, it doesn't matter east coast, west coast, north or south, right?

Dr. Jason Souyias (17:02):
A hundred percent.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (17:02):
Workforce is an issue coming out of COVID. How many of us are waiting for that Monday when we get the text because somebody's not coming in for some other reason? And then everyone has to scatter. So in Alabama, the Alabama Dental Hygiene Program is an opportunity to provide individuals that have gone through at least two years of dental assisting, i doesn't necessarily have to be in your practice, but two years of reported dental assisting in a certain amount of hours, that they can actually be trained by certified instructors, which are the dentist, dental instructors in your office. There's a didactic component for a year, and then they have a large amount of requirements of, I mean, they're not maintenances, but they're pro fees that they have to get.

(17:46):
Now across the board the challenge with any boarded situation now is that they're all typodont based, right? I don't know if any board is patient based anymore. And so that changes the discussion too, is the qualifications and certification. So basically you go through a year of didactic, you go through a year of training. I just put one of my team members through it. I have a phenomenal dental assistant who is now a dental hygienist and did not have to go to a dental school. We are the only state in the country that has that.

Cameron Full (18:20):
So by doing that, has that helped kind of reverse some of the conflict or issue that most of those states are having? Has it resolved that in Alabama then?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (18:30):
So I can't speak for most states, but I can speak for Alabama because we have some great hygiene programs in the state. But we just, and I may get this number a little off, but it was like 175 or 170 graduates of hygienists that come right into the workforce that year. So we just had, and they also just gotten their licenses once they passed the boards. 170 hygienists are now in our state of Alabama that weren't there a year ago.

Dr. Jason Souyias (18:56):
But most of them, like other places, most of them probably go to the populated areas like Birmingham. And it's probably harder to find them in the rural areas like Cullman.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (19:05):
Yeah, I mean, I can't say that because we're very blessed and fortunate for our team. We are. But yes, I mean.

Dr. Jason Souyias (19:11):
That's a testament to your practice though, Jen.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (19:13):
Well.

Dr. Jason Souyias (19:14):
That's because of you and your leadership.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (19:15):
I appreciate that, but also what we do is I made sure as a periodontal practice, everyone is cross range, so they're surgical hygienists, so they could jump into surgery. Anytime I lay a flap, they could help me debride the area. So we really elevate their experience.

Cameron Full (19:29):
Makes you want to stay.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (19:31):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's rote memory. You're not just stuck in this black hole of 32 white things all day long. We keep it fun, we keep it interesting, we keep it engaging, and I think that's the key.

Cameron Full (19:42):
Alright, let's go to something else on the list. What do we want to talk about? Relationships, let's talk about relationships with referrals. Again, back to the premise of the framework of the show, we want to talk about things that critical to your success, that their leadership has always been present for you. That's what you were saying. And you advocate for others to get involved, which is awesome. Let's talk about something that, and maybe it is the referral product, but let's talk about something else that you've learned later, and is it some of the referral engagement stuff or is that where you want to go with this? But let's talk about something that you learned later that you wish you would've started a little bit earlier.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (20:23):
Well, and this is not meant to be a commercial, right? But this is organically going to be my comment to that: Referral Lab, Referral Lab, Referral Lab. And that is so sincere and that, and I can't say it from the hilltops loud enough because it allowed me, I mean, I was at practice, I had all the Excel spreadsheets, I had the word documents. I was trying to track this and track that, and it was just a spiral of a mess of a tornado. Now we have metrics to actually look at. And I mean, Cam, you've been in my practice, right? Again, going back to the engagement of your team to hold them accountable. So

(21:01):
I mean, really what it did, and again, completely for those of you on the podcast, I'm not getting paid the big bucks to be on this podcast. This is for real, Cameron, we've talked about this and I love it and I'm in it. That was what, a year and a half in I told you I doubled our, and it's not about production, it's not about collection, it's about what we do and to get our patients healthy, but we were able to double what we do because how we implemented the aspect of Referral Lab and what that meant to us.

Cameron Full (21:29):
I remember that conversation at Gibson. It was a good conversation.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (21:32):
Yeah, I mean, so what I wish I would've known is really how to be able to look at this, turn the light on, roll the window shade up, and just staring at it, not from a 50,000 foot, but really smacking me in the face. And that's really what Referral Lab did. It smacked me in the face. It was one of the most humbling experiences to really understand what I didn't know and what I thought I knew. And even more so, it held my entire team accountable because they thought they knew what they didn't know. So yeah, I mean, gosh, I wish I had that tool in my toolbox 10 years ago.

Cameron Full (22:09):
I appreciate the comment, but let's talk about the analytic function and the accountability. I remember when it started to making some uncomfortable observations. And so you as a leader, because one of the things that you want to talk about, how did it make you change how you engaged with your team?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (22:28):
Yeah, it's really interesting because I know all of us have experiences. Sometimes we keep team members, trying to think how to say this diplomatically to all of y'all, right? Toxicity is real. Toxicity is real. And it can bleed. And it can bleed your practice from an analytical standpoint. It can bleed your practice from an energy standpoint, it can be a time suck, it can be a passion suck. It can be all of that. And so Cameron, really what that does, anything of that aspect in that magnitude lets you take a deep dive. And I said it earlier and everything I told y'all, everything I do is intentional. So everything I say, I'll even say it multiple times. I mean it so strongly. You have to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And boy did we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable and look yourself in the mirror and be like, listen, if we want to be the best that we can be for our patients, for the community, for the state, for the nation, then we have to be able to look ourselves in the mirror and realize, hey, we may be the common denominator in this.

(23:32):
And that's really.

Cameron Full (23:32):
Oh yeah, a hundred percent. Nailed it. Nailed it.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (23:36):
Yeah. It's not the tagline, Referral Lab, it's what it means and what it encompasses. And you got to buy in. You said that, Cam, you got to get, not just buy in, the financial buy-in, you got to buy in fully, and you got to be willing to integrate and to engage. And I can't tell you, I mean, I think we're happier right now in our practice than we've ever been because we're having fun.

Dr. Michael Seda (23:58):
So Jen, to your point with the analytics, I can just speak from my experience that there are things that we thought we were doing, and until we actually looked at the numbers, compiled enough data and looked at the numbers, did we realize and were able to look at ourselves and say, wait a minute, we're definitely not performing as well as we thought we were in this aspect of the practice or managing referrals or scheduling surgery. And so it was a platform that allowed us to have dialogue with those that are involved with it to then say, Hey, this is what we thought we were doing. Here's what we're actually doing. Why is there a discrepancy here? And how do we dig in to find out what we can do to cause positive change? So I think that's a little bit of what you're alluding to with your team.

(24:54):
We've had conversations on this show in the past about treatment coordinators is just one example. And we have several treatment coordinators that might be performing at different levels of proficiency, accomplishing the number of tasks per day or week closing cases and getting patients scheduled for treatment and without having some quick easy way of measuring all those numbers and then being able to compare them. We don't really know how our team members are doing. So using a powerful software, and it doesn't have to be Referral Lab, but using something to help analyze that data then helps us make these informed decisions. And we've talked a lot about that. Are you using that to drive conversation in your practice with your team?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (25:47):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, everything you said is spot on. And actually it's interesting, you hit on something that both you and Souyias said it earlier, you said this, and now AI, right? This is what this is. I know it's not generated necessarily like that, but that's where technology is moving, argue all you want or not. When you see it, it's there. And so same thing with RL, with Referral Lab is yeah, Michael, initially, at first, I didn't know how to best utilize it, right? It was almost like, okay, first off, I've got to look in the mirror and I've got to see what's going on, and I've got to take the microscope and the magnifying glass and really spell it out and Cam you and I had some really tough conversations and boy did they make me feel uncomfortable, but you're like, listen, let's ride this out.

(26:40):
Strap it on girlfriend, we're doing this, and then we'll see where it goes. And then that gave me the confidence, Michael, to say, Hey, I can trust what I'm seeing now. These are where we can improve. And again, through adversity comes opportunity. So we're never perfect. And if we are perfect and we think we're at the top of the game, then we're really not perfect. So it allows you to not only hold yourself accountable, but to have those conversations, to really get people to own, just like we get our patients, we work all day to get our patients to own their disease, right? Well, a disease in a practice is when you have the toxicity, you don't understand the metrics, you don't understand what is going on. Jason, you and I have talked about it all the time. What happened with the beginning of your practice, that's no longer the practice where you started.

Dr. Jason Souyias (27:27):
A hundred percent right?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (27:29):
You had an infection,

Dr. Jason Souyias (27:30):
Correct.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (27:31):
And you knew how to take care of it, right? You closed that, you shut that infection down and you started fresh. Well, this holds you accountable to be able to do exactly that.

Dr. Jason Souyias (27:41):
Yeah. My experience has been, I think people, particularly dental practice owners, when they've had that opportunity to take a long hard look in the mirror and realize it's something I'm either doing or not doing that's causing some of these problems in my practice, their practice always ends up better on the other side of that. And you got to be careful. I know it's in our nature to be like, oh, my team this, my team, that my team is my strongest asset. I'm so thankful I work with the ladies I work with and they're such strong, great people. If there's a problem in the practice, it's my fault. I'm the leader of my practice. And that's what I hear you saying. And I think when people take that approach, it really makes a difference in taking their practices to the next level of fun, comfort, leadership. It just makes it a happy place to work when you lead it in that way.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (28:39):
Jason, you asked me a lot about leadership earlier, and really the best way for me to answer it is we lead, you just hit it on the nail. You got it. We lead every day, and you may not be leading at a state level or a national level, but that's what we're doing. Cameron, same thing for you with your business. That's what we're doing. We're leading, we're educating, and it is so true, just like we do with our own kids, we're leading by example. And if you're the one that shows humility and you're the one that shows being humble, then they're going to believe in you. But when you show arrogance and really display ignorance because of that, you're missing the buck. Actually, that toxicity is not necessarily the team. It potentially starting with you.

Dr. Michael Seda (29:25):
I see that every week where in my practice, invariably there are things that are not going to go according to plan. And I can see the team looking at each other, like who dropped the ball, and I'll immediately step in and say, you guys, this is my fault. And it starts at the top. Starting at the top in my practice has meant really understanding how we can use information and the Referral Lab software, as I dig in deeper and deeper into it, it's very vast, but what it really does is help drive conversation and team meetings. And those team meetings is where a lot of the discomfort starts. And then once you get through it, people start to feel empowered about, okay, this was uncomfortable, but what was the conclusion? The conclusion, something that's actually going to make our lives easier. And so invariably, that breeds confidence, smoother daily practice, and people knowing their roles, knowing what's expected for better success in general.

Cameron Full (30:30):
It's like flossing.

Dr. Michael Seda (30:32):
Yeah. It's uncomfortable. It hurts, but it's good for ya.

Cameron Full (30:38):
It's boring. It's boring as shit.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (30:40):
First, I do love la, la, la, talking to a periodontist.

Cameron Full (30:46):
It's okay.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (30:47):
I do love just organically how y'all both said, team, because you both have heard me say it, and I mean it. Literally say it all the time. Staff is an S-T-A-P-H. And if that's what you ensue in your practice, if that's the energy you want, then again, you're the energy suck. So that team approach, and it's the same thing. So you take that team approach, you engage your team, you involve your team, and you elevate your team, guess what they're going to do with your referrals, right? This is the special list. Well, you want to know the process. It starts with you, like you said, Michael, it grows with your team, and then the web goes out from the team that they engage your referrals because they believe in you, they believe in your practice, they believe in who you are and your philosophy of practice.

Dr. Michael Seda (31:30):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's like us as the practice leader owning whatever the disease is in the practice. And that's going to bring us to your next point on your list.

Cameron Full (31:43):
I love that. I love that.

Dr. Michael Seda (31:45):
Not only can a practice be disease, but the whole reason why we're there is to help patients with their disease. And this is a very, very near and dear topic to my heart. Recently, I've seen a lot on social media. There's a lot of really interesting Instagram pages devoted to kind of the psychology of being a dentist. And one of the things that I saw recently is patients bring in a lot of anxiety, fear, frustration along with the disease that they're coming to be treated for. And then the practice is this breeding ground to just unload it on whoever happens to be there. And so when I read on your list that one of the talking points was around getting patients to own their disease, I really wanted to dig in with you on this because I think it's such an important thing for patients to understand, but also B, for the mental health of the dentist and the team around them that's trying to help. So when you put that,

Cameron Full (32:52):
Is that what gave you your weepy eye?

Dr. Jason Souyias (32:55):
No, no, no. You know what it is?

Cameron Full (32:57):
For those that those that are listening and not watching, Seda has one eyeball that always is kind of weepy.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (33:02):
Why you picking on him Cam?

Dr. Michael Seda (33:04):
Oh, no, no, it's true. I'm an emotional creature. I'm a cancer.

Dr. Jason Souyias (33:10):
So I wanted, wait.

Cameron Full (33:11):
I'm also a cancer. I'm a cancer too. That's why we get along. I don't have a weepy.

Dr. Jason Souyias (33:14):
I want to know if it was the meme from where the millers were, the dentist sogging the psychologist, and it's the boy looking up and wait, you guys get paid for this? Is that the meme that made you ask this question?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (33:27):
Are you saying that's why Michael, there's a scarf, is to clean off his weepy eye?

Dr. Michael Seda (33:31):
That's so funny.No, but Jen.

Cameron Full (33:34):
So the question was let's get this back on the rail.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (33:38):
Come on. This is what happens when you put me on a screen with y'all.

Cameron Full (33:41):
Yeah,

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (33:43):
I'm I'm with you.

Dr. Michael Seda (33:44):
Take it away.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (33:45):
So no, I mean, listen, it starts with all that we talked about. But again, being the limiting factor, the limiting agent or the common denominator on what happens. And think about it with your own kids. I mean, Jason, if you told Leo, I'm a little mad at you, Leo, is he going to give you a middle finger? What's going to happen at this point? Or if you're like, Leo, yeah,

Cameron Full (34:08):
He'ss going to moon him.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (34:09):
Leo, pull your pants up, dude. Right? No.

Dr. Jason Souyias (34:12):
So my wife screwed up and told him that the middle finger in Greece doesn't mean what the middle finger is here. So we went to Greece for two weeks this summer, and every family photo, the boy's got his middle finger up. It's killing me. He is my son.

Cameron Full (34:27):
He's your son.

Dr. Jason Souyias (34:27):
See how well, I know you all. I told you everything I do is intentional, even my examples that I use. But no, but no, in all sincerity, right? If you tell him, Leo, I'm a little mad at you for doing that, is he really going to care? Right? Or if you're like, Leo, dude, come on. And so what happens in our practice, and it goes back, Jason, we've talked about this a ton. What happened in your original practice? You said case acceptance was abysmal, and oftentimes we're the ones that contribute to that. So think about all that time that you've walked by a hygienist and you hear them say, oh, Jean, you've got a little bleeding here, and I think you have a small cavity. So when I actually did, when I started studying this about the verbiage that we use with our patients, and this has been an ongoing process for many years, I had a little notepad, and every time I had a conversation with a patient, I was like, if I use the word little, some, I see some calculus. I see you have gum recession versus periodontal recession. You have gum loss versus bone loss, those type of terms. I would literally do a tally mark and I was like 40 to 50 times a day I was saying these little words. Right? Right, right. It made us feel better. We thought that we were helping the patients by saying, you have a little, but instead, Michael Seda, we were not getting our patients to O-W-N, own their disease because we thought we were making them feel more comfortable that way.

Dr. Michael Seda (35:50):
Right.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (35:50):
Reality, those patients were walking right out because they had a second mortgage, they had a house, they had their Louis Vuitton bag, whatever it was. And we were the ones that were standing in the way of getting our patients healthy and accepting treatment. And y'all, we know this is not about the dollars and the cents for us. This is about getting our patients healthy and everything else will come. Right? But that's what getting your patients to own their disease means. And we need to stop asking yes or no questions. Like hell yeah, you smoke, your entire body smells like an ashtray. Ask them how much and double it by a pack or a pack and a half if you're in Alabama, don't ask 'em if they brush their teeth.

Cameron Full (36:31):
Your hygienists smoke too at the same time. Right?

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (36:33):
Do what?

Cameron Full (36:34):
They smoke while,

Dr. Jason Souyias (36:36):
Let me scale that tooth.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (36:37):
Yeah.

Dr. Michael Seda (36:38):
It just kind of hang, hangs off the side of their mouth.

Dr. Jason Souyias (36:42):
Sorry, Robbie .

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (36:45):
Shoot. Yeah, listen. Well, no, I'm not even going to go into snuff. Y'all even know what snuff is, but I've got,

Cameron Full (36:51):
Of course, we know what snuff is.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (36:54):
Do you?

Cameron Full (36:54):
Do you snuff though, because you are a southern woman, it's possible that you snuff.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (36:56):
But I have a lot of female patients that you would be surprised when they roll down their lips and you're like, what the hell?

Cameron Full (37:01):
Oh, for sure, for sure.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (37:05):
But yeah, I mean, listen, we often are the ones that are the barrier to our patients accepting treatment. It just is what it is.

Cameron Full (37:12):
Man, that's an interesting point.

Dr. Michael Seda (37:13):
So when you talk about own owning their disease, you mean it more in the sense of we're not making it clear to them the extent of what it is and how it can impact their health adversely. And so you're talking about changing the way we approach informing them and helping them understand what is exactly happening. I also see having them own it from a different perspective. And that is a lot of times, as I said, there can be a lot of anger, frustration, and negative energy around it, and that's dumped onto the dental team that's there to try to help. And so I've really started to help people understand that's what they're doing. Because one of the things that really matters to me is the state of mind and the health of my team and myself. And when we deal with people like that on a day in and day out basis, it could be to some degree downright abusive depending on how little self-control or awareness a patient has.

(38:26):
And so what I've started doing is helping patients become aware of exactly what it is that they're doing. And so last week, for example, we saw someone for an evaluation and they had gum disease, they knew they had it. And as we were diagnosing and explaining the treatment that they needed, there was a very aggressive kind of reaction back. And at the end of the appointment, I stopped and I said, Mr. Smith, by the way, just want to let you know were you aware of your anger and frustration or tone at the end during this appointment? And sometimes patient will step back for a second and then finally become aware and become very apologetic about their demeanor. And so I'm looking to try to find solutions to how we can help patients become aware of that without offending them or crossing a line, but also making it a more comfortable environment for our team to be able to give them the care they need and do it in a way where it's coming from the heart and we're not feeling like we're doing this for someone that's coming in with such a negative reaction.

Dr. Jason Souyias (39:40):
I've got a little bit of an answer there, Michael, is I think being able to directly ask patients when they get upset or noticeably upset, like, Ooh, is what I'm saying, upsetting you? Ask the question because, are you upset? Are you afraid? Are you, like asking those questions when you pick up on those emotions, is the best way to it is to hit it head on and not dance around it because it is, I mean, there's a lot of what we do that scares the crap out of people. There's a lot of what we do.

Cameron Full (40:13):
Most of it. Most of it, right?

Dr. Jason Souyias (40:14):
Yeah, of course. And so being able to get them to own their disease, but also when you first hear some what can be some pretty emotional information, you might need time to process that too. And that's a reminder of stuff that we've learned through some of the software data is you might want to not drop a $12,000 treatment plan bomb on somebody when they've been upset, right? Take a minute, let them process it for a week, and then come back and present treatment if you notice that kind

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (40:47):
Or just close your practice when it's a full moon

Cameron Full (40:48):
And it doesn't make it any less.

Dr. Jason Souyias (40:50):
That true,

Cameron Full (40:50):
It doesn't make, and most importantly, it doesn't make them any less interested in having your procedure done. That's also a common misunderstanding is, oh my gosh, they just not, they're not ready. They're not serious. No, you just delivered a ton of information they don't understand. They're not here every day. And then you hit 'em with 15 grand. What do you expect them to do? They need time

Dr. Michael Seda (41:10):
Jason I think it's a great point.That's where reading the room, sometimes you just got to take it one step at a time, and I think it's a very, very good point.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (41:23):
Well, and mental health ya'll, I mean, it's real, especially, it's trite to say at this point now we're five years post COVID, but especially post COVID. I mean, we talked about workforce earlier and mental health is real, right? So much has changed. And so I think y'all are all spot on. Just read the room, absolutely. Be real with 'em. I mean, we call it our new patient experience in our practice, and we tell the patients that we don't say we're about to do an evaluations. We're sure as hell not going to tell 'em we're about to probe 'em. We tell 'em, we take a dental ruler, a dental GPS, because my dad used to say he's an oral proctologist, when he would speak from the podium, I'm like, dude, you cannot say that. You're already a periodontist. They don't know how to spell proctologist or periodontist.

(42:08):
But on all sincerity, it's a joke, but not a joke. Right? They don't know what we do. And you're right, it's scary. I had a patient in my office today that before I even said hello, she's crying because she's scared, but she was not just scared of being at the dentist at the periodontist, she was scared that she was going to lose her teeth and the impact that was going to have on her. So we have to have grace, right? I mean, we have to have grace with ourselves. We have to have grace with our team. We have to have grace with our patients. And Jason, you're right. Not every patient, we need to sit down, and you guys are the masters of this at your practice. That was such a joy to come and visit your practice. And for those of you on this call in this podcast, I encourage you to go to your colleagues that you trust their practices. It is so clutch to see how people practice and take away 1, 2, 15, 20 pearls. Because I'm still utilizing, I mean, that was two or three years ago now, Jason. I mean, I'm just building on the thing,

Cameron Full (43:02):
And you didn't even take your team, Jen, big mess up.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (43:04):
Well, not that time.

Dr. Michael Seda (43:05):
Doctor Jennifer, Dr. Jennifer, look at you. You've done it all. You've done it all. Here you are. Thank you for bringing your grace and poise to our show today.

Cameron Full (43:18):
Absolutely.

Dr. Michael Seda (43:18):
It's been wonderful kind of exchanging with you and learning with you a little bit. You're a firecracker. Anyone that knows you, knows how dynamic and involved you are with all the things that you do. And yeah, we're looking to the future and can't wait to see the good things that will follow you wherever you go. Thanks for your time.

Cameron Full (43:41):
We love you, Jen. Thanks for coming on.

Dr. Jason Souyias (43:42):
Thanks for being with us.

Dr. Jennifer Doobrow (43:43):
Love you guys. This has been so fun, so awesome. And keep doing this because you're making an impact in so many ways.

Dr. Michael Seda (43:48):
Appreciate Jen.

Cameron Full (43:49):
Thanks so much.

Dr. Michael Seda (43:50):
Thanks for being with us tonight. Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists featuring a special list from a specialist. Got a question for us? Send us a message at speciallists.com with two Ls. Transform your referral workflow with Referral Lab, the purpose-built platform for dental specialists to track, manage, and convert every referral. Request a demo at referrallab.io.