Special List #1: What They Don’t Tell You About Running a Dental Practice

Dr. Souyias (00:02):
You are listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists. On every episode, we bring you a special guest specialist featuring a special list. I'm Jason Souyias.

 

Dr. Seda (00:16):
I'm Michael Seda.

 

Cameron Full (00:18):
And I'm Cameron Full. Super excited to be here with my co-hosts, Dr. Michael Seda and Dr. Jason Souyias. We're going to talk to you a little bit about why we're excited to launch this podcast with you and for you, and we're going to kick it off with our own special lists, but why don't we get us started with either one of you guys and talk to us a little bit about why you're excited to do this with the group and what we expect to do with the podcast.

 

Dr. Souyias (00:46):
So I'm excited to do this because the Referral Lab has taught me a lot about my own practice and sharing that knowledge with other people and getting other people and the exposures that I've had to people in my career have had such impactful, positive effect on my career that I want other people to be able to share in that as well. So having guests on and talking about how we run our practices and the things that have affected our careers in good and bad, I'm just really excited to share that. I just want people to know that running a practice isn't easy, they're not alone. There's support, there's people out there, especially sometimes I think as a specialist, you kind of feel like you're on an island often when you're not in a group practice. And I'm excited to be a place where other people can come to and listen for some information.

 

Cameron Full (01:49):
Thanks, Jason. Michael.

 

Dr. Seda (01:52):
Alright, thank you Jason. For me, this whole project is about people and over the years we've had the unbelievable experience and opportunity to meet so many personalities and not just the dental field, but in business and software development. And throughout our journey we've had some good times, we've had some challenges, but every step along the way, it's been a learning curve for all of us. We've learned so much and we've had fun doing it. And so for me, this is an opportunity to share you guys with everyone out there and the people that we've met along the way to engage them, to bring them in, to share their experience and expertise because as Jason said, it's been so impactful for me and knowing that there's a cohort of people out there thinking about the subject matter that we're focused on, personal growth, professional growth, practice growth, it's extremely exciting and it's fun and we're going to bring that fun to everyone else out there and I look forward to doing it.

 

Cameron Full (03:07):
Nice. So when we were coming up for the framework for the show, it was we were tossing around some ideas and we actually came up with the special lists because with this network that Michael talked about, the opportunity that we've had to engage with not only people inside of the dental space but outside of the dental space too. And so we wanted to tailor it obviously to specialists but not necessarily just the specialists and tailor it to dentistry, but not necessarily just to dentistry. So when we thought about these pearls, how can we deliver these pearls and what would be a framework by which to do it? When we all were on the call together naming this thing and we came up with the idea of the special list, it kind of clicked and we said, that's how we do it. We tailor each show, we really curate this adventure with you, with this amazing Rolodex of people that we know and really package these pearls in a meaningful way so that you can pop in here for a couple minutes of your day, whether you're walking the dog or driving to work or whatever you might be doing, and grab a couple things that you can take home and either operationalize in your practice or in your personal life or what have you.

 

(04:14):
So we thought it would be fitting for us to start with our own lists. As you guys may or may not know, I'm Cameron Full. I've been a serial entrepreneur since, gosh, quite a while outside of dentistry and digital space first and operations and man, I wish I had known some of the things then I know now. And I'm going to cover some of that with you quick too. And I'm one of the co-founders of Referral Lab, which we've gratefully been able to get to sponsor the show with us. So we're going to end up touching some Referral Lab stuff in here too, inevitably. But the goal of the show isn't necessarily just to be in and around that, it's to really to provide you all that amazing Rolodex of individuals that we engage with on such a regular basis. Jason, Michael, anything you guys want to add to that before we get started into our own lists?

 

Dr. Souyias (04:56):
I love what this has opened the door for us with and I'm excited to share it with people as well. Alright, who'd like to get started with their list? How about Michael, would you,

 

Dr. Seda (05:08):
Cameron, you go ahead first.

 

Dr. Souyias (05:09):
Cameron first.

 

Cameron Full (05:10):
Well, I'll start with a couple here. I'll start with a couple here and then we can maybe bounce back and forth a little bit so it's not just me rolling.

 

Dr. Souyias (05:17):
Fair enough.

 

Cameron Full (05:17):
So the first thing that I want talk about is the idea of hiring a ahead of need. And so recently in the last couple years in my own endeavors, I've been a little bit more purposeful with hiring before it was a problem. And so what happens then is a lot of space and time that is all allowed for that individual and you to really refine what that potential goal, position goal might be. And most importantly, allow that individual to train and you to train them in the way that best suits your organization. And I think, man, over the last 20 years prior to these latest two endeavors, I was hiring too late. I was hiring too late, so I was hiring quickly. I wasn't able to be in a position where I was patient with the training of that individual. They were thrown into situations that in many cases they weren't prepared for, which isn't accurately representing me, the brand or the organizations I was working with.

 

(06:22):
I tell you what, this last couple years being a little bit more purposeful with knowing that position's going to be a demanded space here pretty soon, and then allocating resources appropriately to that position early so that that person can then grow into that role. Man, I tell you what the difference with what happens because of that is substantial. I know that not all people and businesses have that ability, but the reality is, is that if you find that space for that to be a possibility, my output from those individuals, those engagements has been significantly better as well as their ability to accurately represent the brand, the business, and the role that they're responsible for. So that's my first pearl on this first special list episode is if you start to feel as though there's a bottleneck in your practice or in your business, I hire ahead of that, right? Identify that and then you can take the time to snag that right person instead of just hiring somebody that's got what you think is the appropriate experience to throw in. Any comments on that, Michael or Jason?

 

Dr. Souyias (07:21):
Yeah. Was there a specific event in your life or any of your businesses that opened your eyes to that?

 

Cameron Full (07:28):
Oh boy. We weren't prepared for questions.

 

Dr. Souyias (07:31):
Hey man, I'm asking the tough stuff. That's what I'm here for. I want to be like Barbara Walters and see how many people I can make cry on camera.

 

Cameron Full (07:41):
Yeah, let me come back to that. I think that's a, that's a wonderful question.

 

Dr. Seda (07:45):
I can speak to that, actually. I remember Cameron and I were hanging out months ago and we were at a Warriors game. I had the luxury of introducing Cameron to the wonderful world of Steph Curry live. And what we were talking about was just that hiring ahead of where you would see bottlenecks occur. And I had just happened to be, I'm a periodontist, I'm a single practitioner. I practice in Northern California, and we have a extremely busy boutique practice. And I have 14 team members working on the practice at any given time, administrators, hygienists, assistants. And we were coming up on a time where I had been informed by one of my head treatment coordinators, a very high level administrator. She wears a lot of hats. She's one of the most talented people that's ever worked for me. And she had informed me that she was pregnant and that she was going to be taking leave.

 

(08:53):
And I was fortunate enough, one that she had communicated that to me as early as possible, but typically the historical version of me would've really waited until we approached a time that she was on her way out to then find her replacement. And just kind the echoes of Cameron in my mind about wanting to be ahead of the curve on things like this. We immediately put an ad out and we decided that we were going to bring someone in, co-train them with her and really get that new team member up and running before it was even close to the third trimester. And soon thereafter, we found out one of the assistants was going to be leaving to go to hygiene school.

 

Cameron Full (09:42):
Of course, of course, of course.

 

Dr. Seda (09:43):
So the point was is we started slightly overstaffing because it's extremely detrimental to the practice when you're trying to catch up.And we found ourselves in a situation that although there was team members making a graceful exit and they had left such a positive impact on our practice, we didn't slow down one bit. We just kept the machine running. And yes, there are times where we were slightly overstaffed and you've got to watch the budgeting concerns on that. Obviously we want to make sure that we're not over budget on salaries, but there are times where you have to kind of budget for being over budgeted on salaries for stuff like this. So it was a great example of looking down the pipeline and seeing where things are going. Especially with team, especially in an industry like ours. We have a handful of people that have been with us for one of my assistants, Emily, she's been with me from day one 18 and a half years, almost 19 years. I have another assistant, Camila, she's been with me for 12 years. But that's the unicorn. And we get very talented people in the practice that have other aspirations. And working in a surgical specialist practice is kind of one step towards a greater goal and we want to support that, but also be aware that these people are going to be growing and transitioning. And so how we prepare ourselves for that is very important.

 

Dr. Souyias (11:15):
So can I ask that in a different way, Michael?

 

Dr. Seda (11:18):
Yeah.

 

Dr. Souyias (11:19):
That you're saying in an expensive state where team members are probably the most expensive, being in northern California, probably one of the most expensive places in the country to hire team, you think you lose more in production by not having enough people than you do paying in salaries and be slightly overstaffed. Is that another way to say it?

 

Dr. Seda (11:40):
I couldn't have said it better myself. And that's exactly right, because the team is the engine that makes things work. And I would much rather have an increase in salary to some degree for the sake of not slowing down the way that we can provide care in a caring, efficient, clean environment. And things start to fall apart when you're understaffed, as you know.

 

Dr. Souyias (12:07):
Yep. I've had similar experiences to you guys, and I tend to run a little heavy in staff as well, but I'm in a very economical area compared to the amount I lose in production, just completely overwhelms not having a little extra on the payroll for me. I mean, I'm not talking being complete like three people that are sitting around, but I'm saying if somebody's out sick, we don't have to change our schedule.

 

Dr. Seda (12:35):
Especially as a younger practitioner, that's a really hard situation to be in, right? You've got loans, you've got a new practice you've built, you're trying to adhere to a budget and be very tight with the numbers to make sure you can survive. And so sometimes the concept of being slightly overstaffed is a is a tough one to get your head around. And it took me years to get my head around that. I wore it as a badge of honor. It was somewhat masochistic actually, that I had such a lean team, very few people, but we were able to produce. And what I realized is it just translates to people that are working too hard, they're being pulled in too many directions and one of the keystones to our practices is that were not just, they're being productive, we're having fun and happy while we're doing it. And I think that's another contributing factor to that practice environment.

 

Dr. Souyias (13:36):
I think what affords us that luxury though in the beginning of my career, it wouldn't have been possible. I mean, when I first started, I don't think I took a paycheck for the first several months, if not close to a year. So you couldn't be overstaffed. But what affords us that luxury is having busy, high functioning practices that are profitable and producing well. Right? When those things are fixed, now we can deal with those little things of having a little extra staff compared to what we actually need.

 

Cameron Full (14:07):
Nice. You guys want to do one or you want me to keep going by my list?

 

Dr. Souyias (14:12):
Switch it up. I'll do one.

 

Cameron Full (14:13):
Okay.

 

Dr. Souyias (14:14):
For me, again, I'm a practicing periodontist in Port Huron, Michigan. This is my 20th year. We graduated the same year, didn't we? So 20th year from being in practice. It kind of blows my mind. One of the things that I wish I knew early on that I know now today is how important case acceptance is. And I'm going to give you my first two because these two are tied together. I started a practice, right? You guys know my story, but I started a practice from scratch right out of residency. That first practice tanked within five years of me starting it. And I ended up having to shut the doors, go through bankruptcy and find another job, and I became the associate at the practice I currently own today. And the doctor, my mentor that started me on all of that, showed me the importance of case acceptance.

 

(15:01):
And when I looked back at my first practice to do a postmortem accounting of what the heck happened at the time that it happened, I blamed it all on, oh, it was the economy. Oh, it was this, oh, it was that. Reality, it was me. I was the problem. I talked patients right out of treatment. They would always say, I can't afford it. I don't have the money and drive off in an expensive sports car. And it was mind blowing that it was as hard as it was. They don't teach you anything about selling treatment to patients or getting patients to say yes when you're in practice, in schooling. And so it's kind of mind blowing how that all works and how difficult that was to do in the beginning, but it's so important. The other half of that is now going through this process of creating software and seeing how important not only case acceptance is, but how important average case value is. My aha moment, Cameron was from you with this average case when we were lecturing together in Phoenix. And you talked about you kind of proved mathematically how it's better to use to treatment plan comprehensively, even if that lowers your case acceptance lately, but that you can prove mathematically it's better to comprehensively get case acceptance with a higher average case value. And when I saw that on the screen, I was just like, man, of course this is true. How come I didn't know this before? And so that's something that even now, that was kind of a recent discovery in my career that those two things focusing on having great case acceptance and having excellent average case value have really changed my practice for the better and helped make it more profitable. And going back to our first conversation has afforded me the luxuries I have today of being able to not have to change my schedule when somebody's out sick.

 

Dr. Seda (17:05):
Jason, if I may, what it sounds like you're touching on is actually taking the time to collect data on your practice when it comes to what your average case value is, et cetera, et cetera, and then taking the time to sit down and look at that data and make sense of it and then apply what you're learning towards how you're running your practice. And so can you touch a little bit on how long and when you kind of introduced using analytics and metrics from a business management perspective? Because that's something that certainly of us learned in dental school, and I know for many years I didn't do.

 

Dr. Souyias (17:54):
In my first practice, I tracked nothing and then watched it slowly die and burn in flames. And it was painful, but it was one of the best lessons I ever had. And then I came and joined a practice here that prior to software, I mean we tracked everything on spreadsheets. I knew what our case acceptance was. We kind of knew what our average case value was, not as detailed as we do it today, but to a degree prior to ever starting the software we started. And going through all of that made me come up with that idea of like, man, we do this in our clinical practices. We think about, okay, what's the best treatment for this patient? What do we do when it comes to running the businesses, our businesses? So having an approaching businesses with gathering data and making informed business decisions based on the data you have, just like we do evidence-based clinical decisions. This allows us to do evidence-based business decisions. We're not just going with a gut check. We we're actually like, okay, this is what the data says, every other field, friends of mine that are in other industries are like, well, of course we track data. Why don't you guys? Every field that everybody I talk to knows statistics on their business. When you talk to a dentist, they're kind of like, oh, I know my production. It's not our strong suit and we've never been taught this stuff very much.

 

Dr. Seda (19:23):
Well, and I think it ties in slightly to the stigma of selling treatment. Over the years, it's not as if we're trying to sell something people don't need, but yet in dentistry, there's always been this stigma of if you're trying to sell something, then you're not doing the right thing or you're not taking your patient's best interest in mind. And we're saying the exact opposite, right?

 

Dr. Souyias (19:51):
Correct.

 

Dr. Seda (19:51):
We want to sell as much as we can because we are in a privileged situation where we can actually help people with what we're selling.

 

Dr. Souyias (20:00):
Hundred percent.

 

Dr. Seda (20:01):
The only way I feel you can do that effectively is if you're tracking what you're doing, how you're doing it, and then sitting down looking at it, all the data that you have, and then making informed decisions based off it rather than, as you said, just going from the gut.

 

Dr. Souyias (20:19):
It's funny you say that because I've had that revelation through my career as well that when I first started, I thought sales was a dirty word. When I heard the word sales, I pictured a used car salesman pushing a car that the minute you drive it off the lot, it's crashing and burning and you're like, what the heck did I pay whatever money I paid for that thing? And that's it. I thought sales and health didn't belong together.

 

Dr. Seda (20:45):
Correct.

 

Dr. Souyias (20:46):
But then through the course of my career, realizing that, oh my gosh, there's so many people that need what we offer but don't necessarily want it. How do we get them to want the solutions? And that's where it's sales techniques and it's the truth. It's ethical sales is selling things to people that they actually need to help them improve their health. And finding out, taking the time to find out what your patients want and what they're after.

 

Dr. Seda (21:14):
One of the things I wish they had taught us earlier on was the importance of stepping away from clinical practice to run your business and meeting with everyone that's contributing. And that can be in the form of an entire team company meeting. That can be a departmental meeting that can take the form of metrics meetings. We do meetings now once a month just to look at the numbers based on what data referral lab is giving us. And each time I have a meeting, I walk away from it thinking two things. One, I wish I had started doing these earlier. And two, I can see the morale of everyone involved elevate as they feel like they've had an opportunity to voice concerns, celebrate wins, and they feel like they're a part of something rather than just like a train bulldozing ahead day after day, treating patients, treating patients, and taking time away from just production. And how we use that time to evaluate things, to coach people, to bring people together is such an important part of running a solid healthy practice. And I see that now when I have colleagues that sometimes struggle in their practices and they look to me and they say, Mansa, how do you do it? And I ask them, are you taking time for team meetings? And it's amazing to me how few people actually do that.

 

Cameron Full (23:01):
Yeah, absolutely.

 

Dr. Seda (23:02):
And then it's not just about doing them, but how you do them and doing them effectively. So for me, that's just such an integral part of what we do. And I wish I had started it earlier and learned about it earlier.

 

Dr. Souyias (23:15):
Don't you think that most people think that by losing an hour or two hours of production, they're just kind of focusing on, okay, what I didn't produce that I could have produced during that time? When in fact, focusing on your team and doing the training, you produce more when you get back to the clinic.

 

Dr. Seda (23:33):
Absolutely. And I'd be the first to admit I was the worst offender of that mentality for so long. And only when I was forced from challenges we were having, and I was young, I was ambitious, and I had this skillset, I had learned in school. Being in medical school, dental school, residency, college for so many years, you get out and you have this skillset that you want to apply. And so I think it's very easy to fall into this kind of mentality of let's get out there and let's grind and do as much treatment as we can. And so sometimes you can get yourself into a real big problem where you're not taking time to do the other things.

 

Cameron Full (24:17):
Yeah, it's such an interesting topic actually. When you look at our user base and when we've engaged with in person over 150 practices on foot in the last couple of years, or rather three and a four years, there's a strong delineation between those practices that do engage with purposeful meetings and those that don't or we tried that it doesn't work work for us. And I think the problem is, Michael, before people get into that regimen or practices get into that regimen, it takes pattern, it takes practice. It takes practice to have a good meeting. You can't just have a good meeting right out of the gate. You have to learn how to regimen, you have to learn how to have structure, you have to learn how to moderate, you have to learn how to kick things to the next meeting. And so I love that that's one of your pearls. It kind of coincides with one of mine, and that is training and expectations are everything with your team.

 

(25:11):
And so mine are a little bit more, obviously I don't own a practice. I get the ability to see the broad strokes with a lot of practices, but also my own endeavors aligned with that first pearl of hiring a head of need. I think that I was just in a practice this past weekend and the administrator was basically saying, man, I really need to spend some time with my front desk team. I don't even know if they know how to appropriately enter patients into their DPMS. And I said, man, is that who you want answering your phone? And again, remember, it's unfair to just jump there because they're probably, oh my God, we need a hot body right now. We're in trouble. But what are we doing to engage with them in a purposeful way around meetings, Michael, and give them the appropriate time we need through a training regimen so that they are who we want them to be for us.

 

(26:04):
And most importantly, if we're the only specialist in the area, or we do believe that we are the best to offer this service to these potential patients, the last thing we want to do is scare them away. And I think that in dental specialties, I think that it's, so fear based anyway, the last thing we want to do is be fearful with that type of conversation. We want to do everything we can to have these people represent us appropriately. So part of that is a constant communication stream with our team through purposeful meetings. I love that. That's awesome. Souyias, your turn.

 

Dr. Souyias (26:42):
Kind of off the difference, but my dad's one of my heroes in life. My dad was an immigrant to the United States. I'm the first generation here in the US. He was born in Greece, came to the United States when he was 19 years old with 200 bucks in his pocket and kind of made the American dream happen for himself. And he's one of my absolute heroes. He worked as a caddy, put himself through college, took five years, he had to learn English, so learned English, got a degree in mechanical engineering, and then went to work for Ford Motor Company. While at Ford Motor Company, got his MBA and then worked for automotive suppliers ever since that.

 

Cameron Full (27:23):
Cool.

 

Dr. Souyias (27:23):
And retired at 81. And my dad from the time I was a young kid, always told me, whatever you do, own your own business, be in charge of your own destiny. And I think that was one of the regrets that he had in his life was not doing that from the time I was little. He was always like, whatever you do, own your own business. And I think it just that he looked at all the money he made for other people over the course of his career.

 

(27:51):
And that ties into I didn't know how much I would enjoy running a business. And I think my dad trained me for this from a young age. And so that's to me is the importance of owning your own business. There's three ways millionaires are made in the United States, real estate, stock market and business owners. And so it kind of blows my mind that some of the younger dentists that are coming out of school these days, or at least I'm being told from the ones that I talk to, that a lot of 'em don't want to own their own businesses, that they like that security of a paycheck. But I'm of that different mentality. Man, if I could just share that piece of advice with those people and say, you know what? Running your own business is a great thing and it's an enjoyable process as well.

 

Cameron Full (28:43):
Nice. So it was own your own business, is that what you're saying?

 

Dr. Souyias (28:47):
Own your own business. That's what I'm saying. Again, I don't know how you could not want to do it. I find the whole process enjoyable.

 

Cameron Full (29:00):
I think too, the difference with, again, I've never owned a practice obviously in a serial entrepreneur.

 

Dr. Souyias (29:06):
But you've owned your own businesses.

 

Cameron Full (29:08):
Of course. And I think that's what it's a little bit different about this project that we're on with Referral Lab is it's a little bit of a different engagement than practice ownership, which is I think cool for if I were you, I think that would be probably pretty cool. Different type of engagement.

 

Dr. Souyias (29:23):
I've absolutely enjoyed and come to treasure my time working on Referral Lab because it provides some variety, right? It's another business that I'm part owner of and help develop. But it's a nice transition from practice and taking the skills that I do have from working in practice and using it in a different application. I've absolutely enjoyed that process and to have the true entrepreneurial experience of creating something from scratch, taking it to develop, through development, and now putting it out on market and watching it now, what are we in over 550 practices? I mean, it's proud. I have this little fantasy in the back of my head. I can't wait to one day run into somebody with a Referral Lab shirt or referral lab hat that I'm like, I don't know that person. Who are you? I love that, to just see somebody out on the street walking around with something like that, a little swag would be amazing.

 

Cameron Full (30:21):
I can make that. I'll just plant that.

 

Dr. Souyias (30:24):
Of course you will. Just make that plant. I love it.

 

Cameron Full (30:27):
Seda, you're up.

 

Dr. Seda (30:31):
So another pearl. So oftentimes we're all so scattered, kind of busy with our heads down doing our work. And so really getting out there and sharing with other people in situations and what we learn from each other in doing that is just invaluable. And it's been a huge boost for me emotionally as well as financially in my practice, on a personal level. Cameron you're, Malcolm Gladwell, the author, he defines a certain subcategory of human as a connector. And a connector is someone that enjoys the action of bringing people together, finding things in common amongst those they have and connecting them. And you do that so beautifully. I find you to be a great resource for people in general. Maybe you can talk a little bit about,

 

Cameron Full (31:36):
I appreciate that.

 

Dr. Seda (31:37):
How you feel in that role. Are you aware that you serve that role? And talk a little bit about that.

 

Cameron Full (31:46):
I appreciate that. Well, I think what's interesting about that is that's kind of the tenet of this, right? This is another way to do that. And I've been told that before. I'm not good with that type of a conversation, but I've been told that before. And I think it's our duty. It becomes our duty to support other entrepreneurs and other people that comes with, what was it with great power comes great responsibility. And so we all have, we all have these superpowers, and I was gifted the gift of gab and of empathy at the same time. And I think those two things together make you a friend to many, especially when you can listen more than you can talk. And so with that comes the opportunity to do stuff like this with amazing people like you, but also the responsibility that we with taking people that are going to be our guests and introducing to others so that they can in turn provide their knowledge to other people.

 

(32:46):
That's the beautiful thing about the internet. It's a beautiful thing about the podcast space, about WhatsApp, about the phone, technology made all these things possible. I think if you don't have that space, these WhatsApps, these masterminds available to you, start one, right? I want to get 10 guys together, I want to get nine girls together, whatever I want to do. And then you create a framework. I just got introduced to another one about a year and a half ago, which I was incredibly honored to be part of incredible men in that group, and they're all high performing dental guys, and I'm a non-dentist. I said, why am I the only non-dentist in this group? And it turned out that it wasn't about dentistry. And so it was about everything else that surrounded it. It was such an honor to be in that group at the same time. It's like we crafted what we wanted it to be to fill that vacancy that we had in our personal and professional lives. And so I think that's a great comment, Se.da, and that should have been on my list

 

Dr. Souyias (33:48):
Before going on, sharing knowledge in those groups, I wholeheartedly agree, Michael, with what you said and Cam, you are an amazing connector, whether you know that role or not, you bring people together around things. But a different spin on that, but the same thing is I wish I knew early on in my career how much it would have an impact on me not only to be a mentor, but to be a mentee. I think you graduate for us I graduated residency, I'm like, oh, I know how to do this stuff. Well, there was a lot of stuff I didn't know how to do and it took making mistakes and doing things the wrong way. And then I had the opportunity of going from thinking I knew what everything was to now coming into a practice as an associate five years into my career and being like, man, I obviously didn't know stuff. I did it wrong. And being able to accept that mentorship was absolutely amazing. Maybe I wouldn't have accepted the mentorship as well had I not had that negative experience from the first five years. But being open-minded and realizing that there's lots of different ways to do this and learning from other people is so important, and teaching other people sharing what you have learned now, especially now that we're becoming the old gray haired dudes, let's share that knowledge. That's part of this as well, is sharing that knowledge that 20 years of experience has brought.

 

Cameron Full (35:20):
So I don't know if this necessarily applies to your guys' space in particular in the practice ownership, but I'm going to talk about keeping your blinders on like a race horse. One of the things I did early in a couple of my early ventures was it was easily distracted. And so with the businesses that I was engaged with, it wasn't necessarily, I didn't stick to what we were best at. And I've learned to do that over the last, probably this last 10 years. I've been a lot better at that. And what's awesome about Referral Lab in particular is it's kind of a pioneer product. Obviously I'm a little biased, cuz I'm in the weeds with it, but we're teaching people to do things a little bit differently. And so that's obviously all the education that comes with trailblazing, it tempers a little bit of that trajectory when you're not second to market.

 

(36:17):
But with that comes a lot of distraction and the amount of opportunities that we have to build the product, change the product in particular, we have to be really, really particular about what we choose to do or not do, and how does it align with our core tenant, right? And so I think at the practice level, it's important to, I think do the same thing. And I think it transfers amongst all industry obviously, is what am I the best at? What am I the best at and what do I enjoy? I think some enjoyment needs to come in there too. We don't want to just be a factory, but I think that over the last decade, really keeping those, I always think about being a race horse, keeping my blinders on. Does this align with my core tenant? Yes or no? If it does apply, if it doesn't put it in the parking lot and see down the road, is this something I can apply later?

 

Dr. Seda (37:14):
Given how many people you engage on a monthly basis, can you give some examples of what you're referring to specifically? And I guess maybe starting with the dental space, just because kind of who we're gearing this towards, but any examples that you can think of that come to mind?

 

Cameron Full (37:33):
Yeah, I don't want to, how do I say this, Michael? I think that we as humans are notorious for chasing shiny objects and whether it's in a CE or in a vendor space and Referral Lab could be arguably one of those shiny objects too. But I think a lot of times it's like, Hey man, this one thing is that, this one technology or this one robot or this one, this new implant or whatever it may be is going to change my practice. And I think the reality is we're so fortuitous to have fallen into the space that we're in both as a direct provider and as an adjunct provider. I think that oftentimes, and man, I get calls people, what do you think of this product? And I'll be like, I'm going to connect you with a guy that I know that bought that, and I'm going to let him tell you how he feels about that product, knowing exactly what that gentleman's going to say.

 

(38:42):
And then I saved that particular guy a couple million bucks on buying a whole bunch of stuff he wasn't ever going to use true story. And I won't say the product obviously for obvious reasons, but I think that happens regularly. I think it's shiny and I think that Jason said a while back, man Cam, I work in a space where not a lot of people want to come see me. And so I heard that, and I've never been in that space. I've never had that engagement. People have always wanted to engage with me in a professional setting, at least I think so. But I think that sometimes that shiny object syndrome closely aligns with maybe that feeling of, man, this will change, this will make me enjoy my job more, or this will speed up my ability to get out of here because more profitable or those types of things that are alignment, Michael. So that's as close as I can get with a straight example without sharing some manufacturers and stuff.

 

Dr. Souyias (39:39):
I can add an example of how we approach our own product with Referral Lab when we get a lot of requests from our users to change features or do things or add new features. And we always have to go back, one of the best things about it is keep it simple. The fact that we make it easy to use because it doesn't sync with things like, yes, it would be great to track all these amazing things that we get in requests, but now what if it took you two minutes to make these entries instead of 30 seconds. Two minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're getting 20 new patients a week, that's a lot of time that your team's spending on that. So it's again, not chasing that shiny new object, but always applying the core tenet principles of we've got to be easy to use. So I think it's a similar kind of concept.

 

Cameron Full (40:29):
Yeah. Awesome.

 

Dr. Seda (40:31):
Well said.

 

Cameron Full (40:31):
I've got one more who's got other stuff they want to share?

 

Dr. Souyias (40:35):
I got one more too. I've thought for a long time in my career that there was a point where my practice would just get to be on autopilot, and I now realize that that's never going to happen.

 

Dr. Seda (40:48):
Great point.

 

Dr. Souyias (40:48):
And I'm okay with it, right? I'm okay with that realization that there's no such thing as autopilot. One of the saying goes to what's the reward for good work?

 

Dr. Seda (40:59):
More work.

 

Dr. Souyias (40:59):
More work. So that's the challenge. But what I like the way we say it better is solving one problem just shows you what the next problem is. So in my own practice, when my schedule was broken and I was four months out for a consult with both myself and my associate, and we worked together to fix the schedule in my practice, and all of a sudden now we're down to a reasonable two to three weeks and then all of a sudden the next, and I was like, oh, good, now we'll be able to go on cruise. Well, nope, it's not cruise control. Now the next problem shows its head because you fixed the more urgent one. And I think for the longest time I thought that there was this button, like I picture, a pilot on a plane, it's just like autopilot and can just let it go and forget it. And I realized it's just constant, constant work that you're constantly working, you're constantly evolving, constantly improving and making things better.

 

Cameron Full (42:04):
That's my blessing.

 

Dr. Souyias (42:05):
Yeah, it's fantastic. It's rewarding. When you get through that problem and you get to the end and you're like, okay, now what's the next thing I get to work on? And in the past I used to look at that negatively of like, oh, now what do I got to deal with? And so it's so nice to come to that realization that there isn't this cruise control. It's freeing to know, so now when my team's like, okay, so-and-so's not coming to work today, or bigger problems come up, or so-and-so's retiring, it's like, okay, well let's get through this one. It's next problem. Let's get through it. It's freeing. It's freeing to think that way.

 

Cameron Full (42:46):
Every solution creates the next problem.

 

Dr. Souyias (42:49):
Every solution creates the next problem.

 

Dr. Seda (42:51):
Jason, if I may.

 

Dr. Souyias (42:51):
Coming to knowledge of that? Yeah, go ahead, Michael.

 

Dr. Seda (42:54):
I was just going to say, I think it's a sign of maturity. When you're younger, you kind of have this expectation that you can set things up in a way. Yeah, I see the gray. But to think that you can get things to a point where there's no problems, right? And then you realize after a while that life is about the problems, right? And it will never stop, but it's your approach and mindset towards how you deal with it. And I relate to that big time in my practice and in my life in general, really.

 

Dr. Souyias (43:31):
Life in general.

 

Dr. Seda (43:31):
That's a life lesson right there.

 

Dr. Souyias (43:33):
I think it's feeling like I was always worried with the destination and missing that. The point is the journey. It's not about the destination necessarily. It's the journey that gets you there. Adversity is what makes us stronger. It is. And so I've wanted for a long time this dream of a practice that would just fix itself and take care of itself. And that's not reality. But now that I'm comfortable with that, I accept it so much better.

 

Cameron Full (44:06):
Yeah. Nice.

 

Dr. Seda (44:08):
Shifting gears just slightly, the process by which we surround ourselves with team is a huge concept that I've really kind of dug into over the last few years. And where that comes from is early on for I'd say maybe the first 10 years of my practice, though I was well intentioned and wanted to do the best. I found that I was handcuffed by my lack of ability to surround myself with like-minded people with a similar work ethic and mentality towards approaching people. And the last eight years has been quite the opposite I feel, and how that has changed how happy I am at the office and when I'm working, and the team that I've surrounded myself, and what the process is by which we go about evaluating talent. And I feel like that's something oftentimes left out of our training as well, is we're taught how to diagnose something when it comes to a problem clinically, but personalities, what motivates people, people's core values, all of those things.

 

(45:26):
It sounds very general, but the way that it's enhanced my tranquility in my life is a huge, huge thing. And I've been studying the stoics over the last few years, and the stoics define the purpose of life as living a life with more tranquility and peace of mind. And they define tranquility as living your life in harmony with the things going on around you with very little resistance. For me, there's my family and there's my team, and how harmonious those relationships are and how harmonious those things are working really does affect my tranquility. And so how I've gone about surrounding myself with people and how we all do that, we all have a different way of approaching it. I think that would be a neat thing to dig into later on. But I would love to share how we do it and then also hear how others are doing it and how are they being successful at it or maybe not so successful at it. Because the more we can do that for ourselves, the better we get at that skillset, the more tranquil and productive we are.

 

Dr. Souyias (46:51):
You spend almost spend more time with your team at work than you do around your family a lot of times. They have a big impact on things.

 

Dr. Seda (47:00):
Yeah.

 

Dr. Souyias (47:01):
Have you developed any good systems?

 

Dr. Seda (47:05):
The first thing I've learned is it's not my core competency. And so to find people for whom it is, is very important, and it may be very different for someone else, but I have team members that I've delegated that initial interview process to, and they're way better at it than I am in terms of just kind of getting judgment on what motivates people. Does it align with our culture and what our values are in the practice? And then by the time they get to me, it's just kind of getting to meet them and figuring some minor things out. But I think letting the team and delegating things to them, because they're also the ones that have to work with each other every day. So allowing them to express and influence who's around every day, I think is a huge part of allowing the culture to thrive and strengthen. So how about you, Jason?

 

Dr. Souyias (48:18):
I have sort of flip flopped on you. I do the initial interviewing, but no one gets hired until the team says yes. Right? So I do the initial interviewing to kind of, yes, I like this person. No, I don't. I think they fit with our culture, but no one gets the final thumbs up approval until they spend a half day with us. The team takes 'em out for lunch as well and gets to know them a little bit. And when the team says, yes, this is a good fit, that they get offered the job. If the team's like, no, they don't get the job, well, no matter what I thought up to that point.

 

Dr. Seda (48:50):
And the funny thing is, this is a great example of different ways to skin a cat. And I have a feeling over the course of our next iterations of this podcast, we're going to be confronting many issues where there's different ways to do things. And the beauty of this forum is we're going to lay it all out there, and hopefully the listeners will pick and choose what resonates with them and do it the way that they feel comfortable. And it's neat because there are times where I hear you say something, and although it's initially different than the way I do it over time, just hearing different perspectives might help influence your decision making in the future. And it's very powerful actually.

 

Dr. Souyias (49:41):
A hundred percent. I agree. And I think that's one of the powers of what this format's going to do is we've learned through visiting lots of offices and seeing our friends' offices, that there's a lot of different right ways to do it. And I think that's good for people to hear all of the different right ways to do different things. I think it's valuable.

 

Cameron Full (50:03):
I think that's such an important comment. I think a lot of times people, they come to, especially some of the CE that we host, we try to position, here's a way that's successful, but here's a couple adaptations that are possible. And I think sometimes people just want to hear, well, what's the one best way? Right?

 

Dr. Souyias (50:23):
No such thing.

 

Cameron Full (50:24):
It doesn't necessarily exist. What a great spot, I think to cut this first episode. This is a wonderful engagement. We hope that you stick around with us as we meander our way through this exciting group of people that we've been so fortunate to work with and become friends with and peers with. It's not the same thing over and over again for you, but maybe it's going to be surgical and maybe it'll be financial, and maybe it'll be building a DSO and maybe it'll be deciding not to. And anything that we can possibly do to provide value to you, and just like Michael said, continue to connect you guys together with the amazing network of people that we engage with on a regular basis. That's our duty, and that's what our goal with is with The Special List. And we will see you soon.

 

Dr. Souyias (51:12):
Thanks for listening to The Special Lists presented by Referral Lab, the podcast for dentists and dental specialists featuring a special list from a specialist. Got a question for us? Send us a message at speciallists.com with two ls. Transform your referral workflow with Referral Lab, the purpose-built platform for dental specialists to track, manage, and convert every referral. Request a demo at referrallab.io.